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Um...He Is Pointing A GUN At You...

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  • madchiken
    replied
    Originally posted by HeadDoc View Post
    I don't necessarily agree. It seems that he acted in accordance with his personal values and I respect that. There are people who would prefer death over placing an innocent bystander at risk. I also respect your position, but I don't agree that "Every LEO in the US should feel the same way." Every person should look inside him/herself, know his/her values, and act accordingly.
    I never said he had to shoot. I said he should have done whatever he needed to do to gome home in the same condition he went to work. If he decided lethal force wasn't an option at that time, standing his ground at that range with a long arm aimed in on him and supported was not smart. Thankfully he didn't get hit with buckshot or a slug.

    Leave a comment:


  • willbird
    replied
    Originally posted by Crimy View Post
    In urban areas you see this quite often. I don't know if its an ignorance of people realizing the danger of the situation or a natural human need to want to see whats going on, especially when seeing the police have someone at gun point. Maybe a combination of both. Even after yelling at people to leave they still want to stand around to watch with the mentality this is America and I can stand where I want too. Could also be the need to want to watch the police shoot someone in self defense so they have a shot at being in the media either condemning the officer or stating they had no choice. Usually its the condemning the officer that the media portrays.

    Hopefully the officer has a quick recovery.
    Some people in general have no situational awareness or do not care that they might be standing in the way of something or other, not sure if that applies here, but it might. Those might be the same people who take up the whole aisle in the grocery store. never even thinking the whole world does not revolve around them.

    Leave a comment:


  • 11b101abn
    replied
    I have divulged no specific tactics or opeational information. Ease up and wind in your neck.





    Originally posted by 1042 Trooper View Post
    Yet - you do, critique him HERE! On a public forum!.

    Shame on you. You know what you say here is wrong, as you first apologize before you say it. Unreal.
    Last edited by 11b101abn; 04-13-2011, 07:41 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • S.O.444
    replied
    Originally posted by mavriktu View Post
    After having been shot in Nov.(minor) and armchaired ,I REFUSE to do so here,as should anyone else who has not been in his EXACT circumstance at the Exact moment,with the EXACT same suspect,back up,cover,surroundings etc.
    Agreed. I was involved in an OIS last fall and was second-guessed for two weeks by almost everyone in my department (other than by those that were on scene at the time or had watched the dash cam footage) right up until the moment that I was cleared by IA and my chief. The Sgt's situation freakin sucked, no way around it. Everyone saying that you would have unloaded regardless of the background, either you haven't thought it through or you need a hell of a lot more training in use of force ASAP. Every round you put downrange will be examined with a microscope by IA, the DA's office, the media, and even citizens. You are responsible for every single round that leaves your weapon.

    In my incident, I had to recall what was in the foreground, the background, the BG's position, his vehicle position, and my physical position before and after each round was expended during my internal investigation. Screwing up, even once, in a deadly force review can at the very lease cause you some time off, but at the most can cause you to lose your job and your freedom by ending up in the pokey for accidentally shooting some moron standing in the window of the bakery. Just because some jackhole points a gun at you doesn't give you free reign to unload your weapon towards him. This officer did what he thought was right, to the best of his training and abilities, and ended up taking a round. Crap happens. Could he have done things differently? Maybe, maybe not. I wasn't in his shoes. Neither were any of you.
    Last edited by S.O.444; 04-13-2011, 01:57 AM.

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  • pujolsfan146
    replied
    Originally posted by mavriktu View Post
    This is what I am refering to also.In my case a suspect slammed a door on me and my partner and started firing .45 rounds through the door.One round went through my partners pants leg and struck me in the finger(we were "stacked" to the side of the door).Several coworkers stated to the effect,"I would have emptied my magazine in that door" and "I would have kicked that door in and took him down hard(ie:executed him),Well let me explain something folks.

    1)I DONT shoot without a target,a closed door with a hall behind it that I had observed is NOT,a target.
    2) I had NO idea if innocents were behind said closed door.
    3) we are on HIS turf,HE knows the outlay of the house,NOT me(he is a former bail bondsman with numerous weapons in the residence)
    4)Within 1 hour the suspect was in custody and comes to trial this month,everyone went home safe(relatively),and I had the "good" fortune of getting to tell the wife "Hi,honey,case anyone asks I got shot tonight"
    I had no idea you went through that. I am very happy that you are good. These type of things are career changing. I am constantly telling the rookies that this job is fun but every now and then we good reminders that this job can be deadly and is not all cops and robbers.

    Thank God you are ok and very well done!

    Leave a comment:


  • mavriktu
    replied
    He related to me a story about a call he was on which could have easily led to a shooting. I don't want to give too many details but it resulted in him not shooting. He had an exceptionally good reason not to pull the trigger. All ended up well but he was criticized by his co workers for not pulling the trigger. After listening to him and what was going through his mind there is no way I would ever criticize him or second guess him for his decision.
    This is what I am refering to also.In my case a suspect slammed a door on me and my partner and started firing .45 rounds through the door.One round went through my partners pants leg and struck me in the finger(we were "stacked" to the side of the door).Several coworkers stated to the effect,"I would have emptied my magazine in that door" and "I would have kicked that door in and took him down hard(ie:executed him),Well let me explain something folks.

    1)I DONT shoot without a target,a closed door with a hall behind it that I had observed is NOT,a target.
    2) I had NO idea if innocents were behind said closed door.
    3) we are on HIS turf,HE knows the outlay of the house,NOT me(he is a former bail bondsman with numerous weapons in the residence)
    4)Within 1 hour the suspect was in custody and comes to trial this month,everyone went home safe(relatively),and I had the "good" fortune of getting to tell the wife "Hi,honey,case anyone asks I got shot tonight"

    Leave a comment:


  • pujolsfan146
    replied
    I agree with 1042 Trooper on this. I can't believe I arm chaired this. After further thought I realized my comments were idiotic and uncalled for.

    This past November I was in a shooting. My brothers backed me up completely and too my knowledge there was no second guessing. It was crucial for me to know I had their backing to get through this. I had to shoot the man and there was no other option. The story was all over the news and internet. The pos criminals out there are having fun bashing me on the internet. As far as the newspapers go my co-workers would not leave them lying around as they did not want me reading them.

    The decision to shoot or don't shoot is very personal. In the process of going through this I had to talk to a shrink. He was once a police officer and now he deals full time in officer involved shootings. He is very well known through the law enforcement community. I am sure quite a few members here know him.

    He related to me a story about a call he was on which could have easily led to a shooting. I don't want to give too many details but it resulted in him not shooting. He had an exceptionally good reason not to pull the trigger. All ended up well but he was criticized by his co workers for not pulling the trigger. After listening to him and what was going through his mind there is no way I would ever criticize him or second guess him for his decision.

    We have all heard that these decisions can happen in a split second. That can not be overstated. I can happen so damn fast that your head will spin leave you wondering how and the hell it when down so fast.

    I am sure this officer is second guessing himself and beating the **** out of himself for this. It does not matter how right or wrong he is. Just because he didn't pull the trigger does not mean that he was wrong. Once the dust settles, I am sure he is looking back and arm chairing himself more then any lawyer or other person could think of.

    With all the frustration and anger he is going through right now I would hate to be one of the officers contributing to his frustration. I would really rather be one of the officers that is supportive of him and helps him get through this. Like I said earlier it is a very personal decision to pull the trigger. We just have ourselves and in some cases our immediate family. We don't need to beat each other up when in all reality we need to lift each other up.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1042 Trooper
    replied
    Yet - you do, critique him HERE! On a public forum!.

    Shame on you. You know what you say here is wrong, as you first apologize before you say it. Unreal.

    Originally posted by 11b101abn View Post
    Sorry, man.

    This guys actions MUST be critiqued, or noone will learn form his mistakes, which were many. None of it is personal.

    Everything from mindset to tactics is on the table. We all wish him well, to a man, on here.

    Leave a comment:


  • 11b101abn
    replied
    Sorry, man.

    This guys actions MUST be critiqued, or noone will learn form his mistakes, which were many. None of it is personal.

    Everything from mindset to tactics is on the table. We all wish him well, to a man, on here.


    Originally posted by mavriktu View Post
    After having been shot in Nov.(minor) and armchaired ,I REFUSE to do so here,as should anyone else who has not been in his EXACT circumstance at the Exact moment,with the EXACT same suspect,back up,cover,surroundings etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • crass cop
    replied
    yeah, agreed. It definitely looked like suicide by cop...when the cop refused to shoot, (for whatever reason), you see the guy begin to charge then take the position behind the car....not yet being addressed, then he gets sick of waiting and takes the shot after backup arrives, (Im theorizing here), in order for another cop to observe whats happening and take the shot themselves.

    I forwarded this link out to my co-workers and we watched it this morning in roll call. I would encourage you all to do the same...its good to get a "reality slap" of the job we do and how quickly a Saturday afternoon can go to crap with just one call

    again, glad the officer went home ALIVE

    Leave a comment:


  • mavriktu
    replied
    OOOOps double tap

    Leave a comment:


  • mavriktu
    replied
    Originally posted by 1042 Trooper View Post
    Yes indeed, Mav. All healed up now?
    Never will be probably Troop,apparently permanent nerve damage in the finger tip,but the good thing is,about the only thing you use that finger for is flipping people off,and I can assure you it still functions in that capacity quite well.Just finally lost the nail 2 weeks ago and am hoping a new one grows in,so for now am glad there is no feeling in it.

    Leave a comment:


  • yellowreef
    replied
    Practice, practice, practice, until you know in your heart that you can absolutely make a shot like that without hitting someone in the backdrop. That's what I tell myself, however the situation hasn't come up.

    These situations can't be judged behind a computer. I once attended a ceremony where a guy got a medal of valor for holding fire while taking fire because the backdrop was a school yard full of kids. After hearing the full story I felt the guy that the biggest brass balls ever to be able to hold fire. This story is similar in context. I'm not gonna judge cause I wasn't there.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1042 Trooper
    replied
    Yes indeed, Mav. All healed up now?
    Originally posted by mavriktu View Post
    After having been shot in Nov.(minor) and armchaired ,I REFUSE to do so here,as should anyone else who has not been in his EXACT circumstance at the Exact moment,with the EXACT same suspect,back up,cover,surroundings etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • CityCopDC
    replied
    Originally posted by HeadDoc View Post
    I do agree with those who have said that we should take situations like this as an opportunity to learn, but one of the things we can learn is where we personally would draw the "shoot-don't shoot" line. In this situation, there was no right answer. It seems that the officer chose what for him was the least wrong answer. That might not be the same answer for any of you or for me, but I'm not willing to say that he should have made a different choice.
    What I am willing to say is that, you DO NOT allow someone to point a firearm at you and that same person take up tactical positions while that same gun is being pointed at you.

    Leave a comment:

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