Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Um...He Is Pointing A GUN At You...

Collapse

300x250 Mobile

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    I couldn't tell in the video. And I wasn't there either, but was either of the officers first responding equipped with a squad rifle? I saw the officer toward the end of video run across the frame with a squad rifle. A long gun would have been the first thing I would reach for, if available, when facing someone else with a long gun. With the proper ammo in 5.56 over penetration is almost a mute point. Range wasn't an issue either. The shooter did hold tight numerous times providing an opportunity to neutralize him. I'm not second guessing. I just wonder if it could have been a valid option to avoid harm to a brave officer.
    Last edited by Tackleberry; 04-09-2011, 11:32 AM. Reason: Clarification

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by HeadDoc View Post
      I don't necessarily agree. It seems that he acted in accordance with his personal values and I respect that. There are people who would prefer death over placing an innocent bystander at risk. I also respect your position, but I don't agree that "Every LEO in the US should feel the same way." Every person should look inside him/herself, know his/her values, and act accordingly.
      Not shooting is okay. Not shooting and continuing to engage verbally without improving his situation is the scary part. He's in a no man's land for action. The distance, backdrop, disparity of force, first on scene, etc are all working against him. Whether to shoot or not shoot is judgement call that only he can make. Personally I agreed with his choice not to shoot and backstop was only part of it. The part I didn't like was the lack of plan 'B' after bad guy didn't comply with first order to drop the gun. There could have been lots of plan 'B's and some have already been said.
      "Did that hurt? It looked like it hurt"

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by MG108 View Post
        Not shooting is okay. Not shooting and continuing to engage verbally without improving his situation is the scary part. He's in a no man's land for action. The distance, backdrop, disparity of force, first on scene, etc are all working against him. Whether to shoot or not shoot is judgement call that only he can make. Personally I agreed with his choice not to shoot and backstop was only part of it. The part I didn't like was the lack of plan 'B' after bad guy didn't comply with first order to drop the gun. There could have been lots of plan 'B's and some have already been said.
        +1

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Resq14 View Post
          Someone pointing a long gun at you is an immediate threat to you and anyone around you. Action beats reaction. Look at it this way: would you want this officer as your backup in this situation? Honest question. If you were pinned down by a gunman who had leveled his shotgun at you, would you want your backup yelling until the gunman started firing at you?
          How did the officer get pinned down in your scenario? Was it because he engaged a long gun at a range that's clearly at a disadvantage for pistols?

          You just articulated what was likely to happen if he started shooting first. His backup arrives to find the Sgt. pinned down, or dead, by a long gun. Now, instead of being 'backup' they are primary because the first unit is pinned down. How far away was his backup? Would it be smart to get in a shooting match against a long gun with a pistol without knowing when help is going to get there and your alone with only a pistol? Was the subject wearing body armor and a head shot is needed? There are range issues with going offensive with a pistol against a long gun. I carry a patrol rifle to go offensive. That situation sucked in terms of choosing tactically whether to shoot or not shoot if the only weapon is a pistol. It's certainly not as clear as you make it out to be. If the bad guy was proficient in any manner, he could have advanced and killed that officer before backup even arrived.

          Dinkheller is at a different range and different scenario. No one is arguing 'justification.' It's very clear that there is justification. The only question is tactics.
          "Did that hurt? It looked like it hurt"

          Comment


          • #35
            I re-read my response and regret what I had to say. It was a knee jerk reaction. When the officer didn't fire the thought that he was concerned with civilians in the background did cross my mind.

            I don't want to be an arm chair quarterback. I despise when this is done to me. I was not there so I do not know what was going through his mind. It is very easy to say what one would do when put is these positions however what I say I would do and what I would actually do, in scenarios like this, could be two different things.

            I feel like I did this officer a terrible injustice by my comments and I do regret them. I should know better after being second guessed myself.

            Along with everybody else I am glad this officer is ok and I am glad no innocent civilians were hurt. I hope this officer has many great days left on the job.
            Prov 17:17 A friend loveth at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.

            Comment


            • #36
              I do agree with those who have said that we should take situations like this as an opportunity to learn, but one of the things we can learn is where we personally would draw the "shoot-don't shoot" line. In this situation, there was no right answer. It seems that the officer chose what for him was the least wrong answer. That might not be the same answer for any of you or for me, but I'm not willing to say that he should have made a different choice.
              "Son, you are a walkin' violation of the laws of nature...But we don't enforce them laws."

              I am just a country boy tryin' to make some sense
              But I'd like to ask the Congress, I'd like to ask the President
              "Can ya tell me where all the money went?"
              We might not be broke but we're badly bent!


              The Tractors -- "Badly Bent" from the album Owner's Manual

              "Common sense. So rare, it should be a super power." Exodus 259

              Comment


              • #37
                After having been shot in Nov.(minor) and armchaired ,I REFUSE to do so here,as should anyone else who has not been in his EXACT circumstance at the Exact moment,with the EXACT same suspect,back up,cover,surroundings etc.
                Sleeping Giant. They're not fat and happy anymore. They are hungry and increasingly angry. That is not a good recipe for a "Puppies and Rainbows America".

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by MG108 View Post
                  How did the officer get pinned down in your scenario? Was it because he engaged a long gun at a range that's clearly at a disadvantage for pistols?

                  You just articulated what was likely to happen if he started shooting first. His backup arrives to find the Sgt. pinned down, or dead, by a long gun. Now, instead of being 'backup' they are primary because the first unit is pinned down. How far away was his backup? Would it be smart to get in a shooting match against a long gun with a pistol without knowing when help is going to get there and your alone with only a pistol? Was the subject wearing body armor and a head shot is needed? There are range issues with going offensive with a pistol against a long gun. I carry a patrol rifle to go offensive. That situation sucked in terms of choosing tactically whether to shoot or not shoot if the only weapon is a pistol. It's certainly not as clear as you make it out to be. If the bad guy was proficient in any manner, he could have advanced and killed that officer before backup even arrived.

                  Dinkheller is at a different range and different scenario. No one is arguing 'justification.' It's very clear that there is justification. The only question is tactics.
                  You missed my points entirely. Thank you for stating the obvious differences between this scenario and Deputy Dinkheller's...

                  I give advance permission for LEOs to use any of my mistakes to make better decisions. I review my videos and am probably far more critical of myself than most of you would be. None of us are perfect. You haven't been doing this very long if you believe your actions wont be second-guessed, especially in uses of force
                  All Gave Some - Some Gave All

                  {"data-align":"none","data-size":"custom","data-tempid":"temp_14312_1475388990098_890","height":"65","title":"flower.gif","width":"72"}

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    WOW!!

                    As soon as they pulled up you could hear someone say...he's got a gun. IMHO they took way too long to take the shot. Yeah he was concerned about the backdrop. We train train train...trust your shooting skills and take the shot. The more you think about it the more you overthink things...amazing how point and shoot (without really thinking) is so accurate.

                    As soon as he leveled the gun it would have been over. I'll tell you once to drop the gun....and before you can put a period at the end of my sentence...you're fair game.

                    Once he fired AND THE COP was hit...they had no problems firing at him. Nothing in the book says you have to wait for the rounds to head your way before you engage. STOP THE THREAT!!!! Jesus people.

                    Don't take my post as criticism....that is not my intentions.

                    Prayers for a speedy recovery. I'm glad he made it home to tell his wife and family that he loves them.
                    Last edited by deputy x 2; 04-09-2011, 04:37 PM.
                    This profession is not for people looking for positive reinforcement from the public. Very often it can be a thankless job and you can't desire accolades, because those are not usually forthcoming. Just do your job to the best of your ability and live with the decisions you've made.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I understand where everyone is coming from, but it seems this thread has stayed on topic and been somewhat productive. Although, I'm not out there confronting bad guys on a regular basis.. if you carry, you must always prepare yourself for situations like this. It has made me sit back and re evaluate what I would or would not do. It also reminded me to go over a plan of action with my wife if she found herself in the same position as the bakery shop customers.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by HeadDoc View Post
                        I do agree with those who have said that we should take situations like this as an opportunity to learn, but one of the things we can learn is where we personally would draw the "shoot-don't shoot" line. In this situation, there was no right answer. It seems that the officer chose what for him was the least wrong answer. That might not be the same answer for any of you or for me, but I'm not willing to say that he should have made a different choice.
                        What I am willing to say is that, you DO NOT allow someone to point a firearm at you and that same person take up tactical positions while that same gun is being pointed at you.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Yes indeed, Mav. All healed up now?
                          Originally posted by mavriktu View Post
                          After having been shot in Nov.(minor) and armchaired ,I REFUSE to do so here,as should anyone else who has not been in his EXACT circumstance at the Exact moment,with the EXACT same suspect,back up,cover,surroundings etc.
                          The All New
                          2013
                          BBQ and Goldfish Pond Club
                          Sully - IAM Rand - JasperST - L1 - The Tick - EmmaPeel - Columbus - LA Dep - SgtSlaughter - OneAdam12 - Retired96 - Iowa #1603
                          - M1Garand

                          (any BBQ and Goldfish Pond member may nominate another user for membership but just remember ..... this ain't no weenie roast!)



                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Practice, practice, practice, until you know in your heart that you can absolutely make a shot like that without hitting someone in the backdrop. That's what I tell myself, however the situation hasn't come up.

                            These situations can't be judged behind a computer. I once attended a ceremony where a guy got a medal of valor for holding fire while taking fire because the backdrop was a school yard full of kids. After hearing the full story I felt the guy that the biggest brass balls ever to be able to hold fire. This story is similar in context. I'm not gonna judge cause I wasn't there.
                            "You don't want the truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall... I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it."

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by 1042 Trooper View Post
                              Yes indeed, Mav. All healed up now?
                              Never will be probably Troop,apparently permanent nerve damage in the finger tip,but the good thing is,about the only thing you use that finger for is flipping people off,and I can assure you it still functions in that capacity quite well.Just finally lost the nail 2 weeks ago and am hoping a new one grows in,so for now am glad there is no feeling in it.
                              Sleeping Giant. They're not fat and happy anymore. They are hungry and increasingly angry. That is not a good recipe for a "Puppies and Rainbows America".

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                OOOOps double tap
                                Sleeping Giant. They're not fat and happy anymore. They are hungry and increasingly angry. That is not a good recipe for a "Puppies and Rainbows America".

                                Comment

                                MR300x250 Tablet

                                Collapse

                                What's Going On

                                Collapse

                                There are currently 4773 users online. 258 members and 4515 guests.

                                Most users ever online was 158,966 at 04:57 AM on 01-16-2021.

                                Welcome Ad

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X