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  • wyofirebirdbaby
    replied
    Originally posted by jd08 View Post
    I find it odd that the perception from the general public is that "The police pepper sprayed an 8 year old!" instead of "An 8 year old was acting out so badly he got pepper sprayed!".
    You got that one right! It should really say "Due to parents being afraid to use corporal punishment on their children for fear of them being taken by Family Services, an 8 year old has been pepper sprayed!"

    It could happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • JasperST
    replied
    Originally posted by hopperja View Post
    JasperST, I think you missed my point. Schools have several unfunded or partially funded mandates. Couple that with what is acceptable in the community (ie, teachers don't spank students anymore)...
    I'm not disagreeing with any of that. I have friends that are teachers and know the routine. My beef is with the way the funding is represented by the left and the media. Any shortage translates into teachers getting a pay cut. That puts the heat on the teachers, they picket right before school and the cycle continues.

    I see it with city funding too. Any shortage means less Officers on the street, more crime, etc. IF teachers or cops are the first thing to get cut and the last thing to get funded then the priorities are wrong. And deliberately represented that way to get what they want. I wish the people were smart enough to fire them and get people in that had their priorities straight but instead they are led like livestock to the shed and milked some more.
    Sure, we are paying more taxes and education costs more than it used to. But, both the rules and the measure of success is different.

    Twenty years ago, standardized testing didn't affect graduation rates. Now it does.
    And I hear college professors complain that they are coming out of high school with 2nd grade reading skills.
    ...there's really no way to reliably and validly measure teacher performance.
    The kids know. Maybe they could ask them?
    The two most widely recognized measures of predicting graduation rates are: 1- parental college experience, ie, the more the parents went to college, the more likely the kid will graduate; and, 2- socioeconomic status, ie, the more money a family has the more likely the kid will graduate.

    The rules have changed, the measure of success has changed, and the middle class is shrinking. On the plus side, college graduation rates are up slightly. By the way, in 1990 the US HS graduation rate was 71.18%. In 2008, it was 70.06%.
    Which means nothing really. The fact that academically were have slipped down to near third world status shows a clearer picture. If the rules have changed, the union changed it and I think more money is just going to benefit them, not the kids or the teachers.

    Leave a comment:


  • hopperja
    replied
    JasperST, I think you missed my point. Schools have several unfunded or partially funded mandates. Couple that with what is acceptable in the community (ie, teachers don't spank students anymore), and it makes for an interesting challenge. It used to be what teachers said was gospel truth. Now, when the teacher calls home the parent makes some lame excuse for why the kid is the way s/he is. The kid used to get in trouble twice. Now, they don't get in trouble at home. What really can a teacher do? Keep them in at recess? I'm sure that'll deter their behavior...

    Sure, we are paying more taxes and education costs more than it used to. But, both the rules and the measure of success is different.

    Twenty years ago, standardized testing didn't affect graduation rates. Now it does.

    As far as mediocre teachers getting paid the same as great teachers... is not the same true in police work? Mediocre officers get paid the same as great officers, right?

    In education, as long as schools track (ie, the better/smarter kids go to teacher A or school A, while the less capable kids go to teacher B or school B) and students come from a wide variety of backgrounds with different levels of support outside the classroom (ie, one kid goes home and homework/learning is the priority, while the next kid goes home and s/he runs the neighborhood until midnight), there's really no way to reliably and validly measure teacher performance.

    The two most widely recognized measures of predicting graduation rates are: 1- parental college experience, ie, the more the parents went to college, the more likely the kid will graduate; and, 2- socioeconomic status, ie, the more money a family has the more likely the kid will graduate.

    The rules have changed, the measure of success has changed, and the middle class is shrinking. On the plus side, college graduation rates are up slightly. By the way, in 1990 the US HS graduation rate was 71.18%. In 2008, it was 70.06%.
    Last edited by hopperja; 04-13-2011, 03:17 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JasperST
    replied
    Originally posted by S.O.444 View Post
    My older sister is a middle school teacher, so all of this talk about teachers being overpaid and griping about school taxes being too high, at least in my state, is a bunch of crap.

    Otherwise, bite the bullet, pay the taxes, and enjoy the knowledge that your community is fostering a new, better future for our country.
    I haven't seen anyone say that teachers are payed too much.

    High taxes do not correlate directly with teacher's salaries, working conditions or student performance.

    Unfortunately, great teachers cannot be payed more than mediocre teachers.

    We've been biting the bullet but not see excellence come out of schools. Would doubling our taxes fix it?

    Leave a comment:


  • S.O.444
    replied
    My older sister is a middle school teacher, so all of this talk about teachers being overpaid and griping about school taxes being too high, at least in my state, is a bunch of crap. There is no way that I would do that job for what she gets paid. It's a disgrace that the people that are teaching the future of our country are living paycheck to paycheck and then praying that their employment contract gets renewed at the end of the school year with a major factor being the success of their students being judged solely on their performance on a few days of standardized tests. The ability to "teach the test" is more important these days than being a GOOD teacher. If you don't like paying high education taxes on your house/property, then move somewhere else. Your kids may grow up to become the best damn french fry cook McDonald's has ever seen. Otherwise, bite the bullet, pay the taxes, and enjoy the knowledge that your community is fostering a new, better future for our country.

    Leave a comment:


  • JasperST
    replied
    Originally posted by hopperja View Post
    Ryker, I get that you're frustrated. No one likes paying taxes. However, I think your frustration is misguided. By the way, $750 in property taxes is cheap compared to where I live. I pay 5 times that. It's all a matter of perspective.
    While I don't agree with everything he says I do think he has a point. Education gets an obscene amount of our money. My house is under 1,000 sf and $750 doesn't cover my annual fee to the education institution. Multiplying that out to all of the residences in the county and state is a tidy sum indeed.

    Justifying with increasing requirements id circular logic. I am paying to feed people's kids that live way beyond my means. That is not right, not matter what the federal or state regulations dictate.

    I can't believe that it costs that much for a decent education, somehow we managed with less with better results before. Money isn't the problem, nor is it the solution.

    Leave a comment:


  • hopperja
    replied
    Originally posted by ryker View Post
    ... I don't mind teachers earning a living. But the schools have hand free reign to keep increasing budgets without increasing output. New buses, new trucks, new this, new that... Yet kids drop out, fail out, amd scores across the board are lower...
    Ryker, I get that you're frustrated. No one likes paying taxes. However, I think your frustration is misguided. By the way, $750 in property taxes is cheap compared to where I live. I pay 5 times that. It's all a matter of perspective.

    1- schools are often required by safety standards to spend money on new buses, trucks, etc.
    2- public schools are required to spend money to comply with existing federal laws related to "public institutions" (see, for example, Section 504 of the Vocational Rehabilitation Act, or the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act). Private schools don't have to spend money on these things.
    3- Education starts in the home. You can blame the school, but the fact is that kids only spend 1080 hrs/year in class. There are 8760 hrs/calendar year. This means, kids spend ~ 12.3% of their time in class. What happens outside of school is more important to learning than what happens in school. Perhaps a decline in output is related to a decline in parenting skills. The parent in the story at the start of this thread is a great example. Believe it or not, research shows it all starts with good sleep and solid nutrition. How many times have you responded to a DV call on a school night where the kids are up watching TV at 0200 hrs?

    If you want to complain about taxes, you shouldn't forget the Federal Excise Tax. It was enacted in the 1890s to fund the Spanish-American war. The war ended, but we still pay the tax...
    Last edited by hopperja; 04-12-2011, 12:53 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Magic Matt
    replied
    Is there any first world country that does not have some form of publicly funded primary education, I don’t think so…

    Since the nation needs massive numbers of educated people to run a modern nation state and its economy, it’s in the national interest. The problem is not teachers being paid too much (as many first world countries pay better), it’s that our system sucks, it cost more to operate with a lower return on the investment. (Luxembourg, Switzerland, Germany, Korea and Japan have the highest paid teachers).

    Leave a comment:


  • Redders
    replied
    Originally posted by ryker View Post
    Taxation does not equal fair representation or return. Period!
    So essentially you have then decided to run for the school board correct? I mean if you feel the school district is what the problem is then you should do something to change that. Obviously education starts at the school district not at home right?

    Since you are talking about property taxes does that mean that only property owners with children in school should pay the taxes for the school? If so that's a bit ridiculous, since, how should I say it, many of the "disadvantaged" of our society that like to have 10 kids and prefer to live in a rented trailer then wouldn't provide anything to support the school system.

    Leave a comment:


  • That Guy
    replied
    [QUOTE=ryker;2713647
    Again I don't mind teachers getting paid well- just question why childless homes must pay for it![/QUOTE]


    I'd rather pay for education which in the end will benefit all of us in some way then for jails to house the uneducated. I assume you were a product of private school? If not thousands paid for your public sports and education.
    Teachers aren't paid in the summer months and many go work summer jobs. I have not seen teachers ever be compensated for the time spent grading papers after school, buying supplies, and putting in extra hours. Yet I see cops in LA sue for that 15 minute period of putting on their required gear. Give me a break.
    Its funny seeing cops complain about teachers or other professions being paid or getting benefits.

    Leave a comment:


  • ryker
    replied
    Three to one. School taxes are $750 a year.
    Last edited by ryker; 03-29-2012, 08:39 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • The_Lor
    replied
    Not even close to the same. As I could use the county roads if I wanted
    My wife and I will never have kids. and for damn sure don't like paying for kids like this!
    Could choose to utilize the service, but do not.

    Sounds exactly the same to me. Except that an educated youth is vital to the health of the nation.

    If your qualm is with how the money is spent, that’s a different argument. I have a lot of issues with how education dollars are spent. None of those issues are with the salaries of teachers, however.

    Leave a comment:


  • ryker
    replied
    Originally posted by Redders View Post
    But some one educated by the school system you pay taxes to will never provide you a service at some point?
    Not equal to what I pay in taxes. Then chances are I will pay that person for his work performed. School budgets are highly bloated! Period.

    Yes, an educated society is for the good of all. Yes, I don't mind paying a small amount. I just disagree with how much I must pay based in my home value.

    As if I will benifit more from the education system when I build a garage and thus be required to pay more in taxes! Will this kid in this story after 6 more years of education (taxes), before he drops out, wash my car for free? Will he wash it better becuase I have a 500k home or wash it terrible becuase I only have a 50k trailer. Society will have benifited near noting from the massive amount of money spent to educate this kid.

    Taxation does not equal fair representation or return. Period!

    Leave a comment:


  • BORSTARSDbuff
    replied
    First of all I'd say let the little sh*t ride the lightning and see if it straightens him out. If I walked up and my kid had been pepper sprayed by a police officer because he had been threatening his teachers and LEOs with a weapon (that is the operative word here, WEAPON), my child would miss the OC before I was done with him. What happened to the days of the good old American father-son ***-whooping? This brat probably doesn't act out at home cuz he probably runs the place already. From what it sounds like, mommy is only making a big deal over this because she can get on the news. She was all supportive of the LEOs until the lil light bulb went off "Holy sh*t I can be on national television!!!!"

    Oh and +1 to whoever said it's funny how she thinks everyone else needs a class on how to raise her child except for her.

    Leave a comment:


  • LeanG
    replied
    Maybe the school should've called Barney. He doesn't use o.c.

    Leave a comment:

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