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  • willbird
    replied
    It was a bit before my time of self awareness.

    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • SRT936
    replied
    Originally posted by willbird View Post
    I'm glad, but within a few years I expect the history on that group to be simply erased, too embarrassing.
    Not in LE circles. Any group that makes a point of targeting cops will live long and clear in the minds of LEO's everywhere. Most training that deals with attacks on first responders talk about Weather Underground like it happened yesterday.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bearcat357
    replied
    Originally posted by willbird View Post
    Do they ever bring up the weather underground ? I didn't think so :-).
    When I teach ATO Level 1.... I do....along with the animal right extremeiists...... and lots of other folks....

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  • willbird
    replied
    Originally posted by SRT936 View Post
    Actually, they do.
    I'm glad, but within a few years I expect the history on that group to be simply erased, too embarrassing.

    Leave a comment:


  • SRT936
    replied
    Originally posted by willbird View Post
    Do they ever bring up the weather underground ? I didn't think so :-).
    Actually, they do.

    Leave a comment:


  • willbird
    replied
    Originally posted by BORSTARSDbuff View Post
    I've been to several CT trainings and they do a very good job of explaining the terrorist threat from all places.... The Islamic radicals are a very serious and legitimate threat and is always talked about very seriously... Around the time we discuss Timothy McVeigh. So if we talk about McVeigh is there anti-white stereotyping going on?
    Do they ever bring up the weather underground ? I didn't think so :-).

    Bottom line if one guy is filming you, and he and a group start mumbling allah snackbar....things are about to get more interesting.

    If the same people are doing the same things but they are uttering the Lords prayer.....then typically it is very different.
    Last edited by willbird; 04-01-2011, 10:43 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • SRT936
    replied
    Originally posted by BORSTARSDbuff View Post
    I've been to several CT trainings and they do a very good job of explaining the terrorist threat from all places.... The Islamic radicals are a very serious and legitimate threat and is always talked about very seriously... Around the time we discuss Timothy McVeigh. So if we talk about McVeigh is there anti-white stereotyping going on?
    Back to the topic of the thread....

    This has been my experience with the CT training as well. I've attended more than a few federally funded counter-terrorism trainings in the past 10 years and I have yet to have one that crossed the line. We've discussed Islamic terrorists in depth and discussed how the radicals use mainstream Islam to justify and recruit, but that's a far cry from being a "vitriolic diatribe". On the same token, we've discussed domestic terrorism and how they often use Christian doctrine to justify and recruit to their causes. In both cases, its extremists severely twisting and warping the basic tenets of each religion to their own ends.

    This all smacks of political correctness run amok.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigW
    replied
    I agree. All can have horrible consequences when taken so literally. However, the hate seems to spew a little more on the Muslim side, these days anyway.

    I just think we need to be careful about being so PC in our society. We're so worried about offending someone that we're afraid to stand up for ourselves.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bearcat357
    replied
    As stated.....1.2 to 1.57 billion Muslims populate the world currently..... Out of those, how many are actually terrorists and how many actually are just plugging along in life, believing in God......?

    Leave a comment:


  • ArmyDiver
    replied
    The Exodus one is from verse 20, my misread.

    I'm certainly not arguing that the Koran isn't absolutely loaded with "kill them because ... " verses. You can call it the religion of peace all you want, I'm not buyin it. My argument is simply that monotheistic religions demand singularity and claim the other is wrong and to believe anyone else is wrong and you should convert the other people but kill them if they try to convert you. I have infinite issues with the entire thing...

    They're all bad news when taken literally... hell, they're bad news when taken any way.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigW
    replied
    Originally posted by ArmyDiver View Post

    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. -Exodus 22:19

    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." -Deuteronomy 13:13-19

    If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. -Deuteronomy 13:7-12

    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. -2 Chronicles 15:12-13

    "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." -Luke 19:27 (Yes, that's Jesus speaking)

    "As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." -Galatians 1:9



    Just to name a few...
    The only two I'll attempt to refute are below. The others are in fact there. My mistake.

    From NIV
    19 “Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal is to be put to death.
    Exodus 22:19

    9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
    Galatians 1:9


    However, from the Koran

    Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

    On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

    Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

    Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

    Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
    (different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

    ..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

    If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

    You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

    Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

    Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

    But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

    Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

    O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

    Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

    O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

    It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

    Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

    When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5


    The one that really gets me is the fighting is obligatory for you.......

    Leave a comment:


  • ArmyDiver
    replied
    [QUOTE=BigW;2703422]
    Originally posted by Bearcat357 View Post
    Examples?

    I don't find in the Bible where it says to kill non-Christians. Maybe your copy is different?


    If the cornerstone of your religion promotes violence and you commit violence then I wouldn't call that extremist I would call it your religion.
    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. -Exodus 22:19

    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." -Deuteronomy 13:13-19

    If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. -Deuteronomy 13:7-12

    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. -2 Chronicles 15:12-13

    "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." -Luke 19:27 (Yes, that's Jesus speaking)

    "As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." -Galatians 1:9



    Just to name a few...

    Leave a comment:


  • Bearcat357
    replied
    Originally posted by BigW View Post
    When you blindly interpret your holy book to mean terrorist handbook to serve your purposes.
    Errr.....You do realize that 1.2 to 1.57 billion Muslims populate the world currently..... Out of those, how many are actually terrorists and how many actually are just plugging along in life, believing in God......?

    I know a lot of Muslims from when I spent some time over in the ME....and not a damn one of them wants death to America.....it's only the radical nuts that want it....

    Just like the radical Christians that have done stuff in the past and are doing stuff today in the name of their God...... Check out Topeka KS and "Rev" Phelps......

    Leave a comment:


  • BigW
    replied
    The Bible does not state that we should kill non-Christians. Yes Christians started the crusades, etc. HOWEVER, that is the definition of extremism. When you blindly interpret your holy book to mean terrorist handbook to serve your purposes. But when your holy book actually comes and says to kill those who oppose that is not extremism. That is their religion. I do not know how to state this more clearly.

    I like you and am not trying to start a flame war and am not upset. Just merely stating fact.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bearcat357
    replied
    [QUOTE=FireControlman;2703551] I'm totally at a loss here. What the crusades have to do with terrorism and Islamic extremists is beyond me. I also had no idea the Spanish inquisition was a war; maybe I should throw out all my books relevant to the time period [/QUOTE]

    Errr....Christians using the Bible to further their cause.... Just like Muslims using the Qur’an to futher their cause...... Spanish Inquisition may not have been a war per say..... But they were damn sure killing folks in God's name.....don't you think...?

    [QUOTE=FireControlman;2703551]extremists are the problem - not ****ed off white guys. Seriously, are LE and security personnel on patrol or watch around the world worried about white guys or Islamic insurgents?[/QUOTE]

    Sorry......In my line of work.....I worry about EVERYONE!!!! Perhaps you have forgotten about Nidal Malik Hasan ....aka US Army Major Hasan..? What about Hasan Karim Akbar ....aka US Army SGT Akbar........? What about Sgt. William J. Kreutzer.....aka the Fort Bragg shooter.... All Active Duty members and all active shooters...... The first two may have been Muslims but they damn sure were Active Duty that were supposed to have their buddies back and not fragging them or becoming an Active Shooter......

    What about McVeigh and Nichols...? OKC Bombing....

    What about Eric Rudolph....? ATL Olympic and Abortion Clinic Bombings.....

    What about Ted Kaczynski....? Unibomber.....

    What about John Allen Muhammad & Lee Boyd Malvo...? Beltway snipers..

    What about the Milita in MI...? White dudes wanting to kill Cops for their "cause".....

    What about the crazy lady in NJ....Colleen Renee LaRose...? She was called Jihad Jane but she's as white as I am.......

    What about Zarema Muzhakhoyeva and the rest of the "Black Widow" bombers that have got Russia by surprise (they are white as I am from Chechnya)......

    See....everything isn't so black and white is it...? I don't trust a soul nor should anyone in LE/Security/AT-FP when it comes to this.

    We tell our Guards/Cops to be wary of EVERYONE.....Not just someone that appears Muslim......and that's the way it should be......

    Leave a comment:

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