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CCW shooting in Vegas Cosco

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  • CCW shooting in Vegas Cosco

    This was a shooting involving a CCW holder. The write up is biased but (assuming the author has his facts correct) a VERY good lesson on what NOT to do when CCW:

    Erik Scott was a West Point graduate, Army veteran, MBA graduate of Duke University, and a medical sales rep for Boston Scientific. He was gunned down by three Las Vegas police officers after they responded to a 911 call by Costco store employees reporting a man with a gun, possibly on narcotics, behaving erratically.

    Scott was 38 years old, shopping with his girlfriend for items they needed as they moved in together. Unfortunately, those are the only details of the story on which anyone agrees.

    To hear the side of the story presented by Scott’s family, friends, and some eyewitnesses, Erik Scott’s death was the result of ignorance and embellishment on the part of the Costco staff, and a combative, deterministic mindset from responding officers.

    Other witnesses and the police claim that Eric Scott was armed and acting irrationally, and that his own actions led to his shooting.

    What we know for certain is that Scott was in the camping section of the store taking bottles out of their packaging, attempting to determine how many of the bottles would fit in a cooler he was thinking of purchasing. At some point he bent over and his shirt rode up, exposing the pistol he had concealed at the small of his back.

    A Costco employee saw the holstered sidearm and told Scott he was not allowed to have the weapon in the store. Scott replied that he had a permit and the right to carry his weapon. He then went back to shopping. The employee called over a manager, who informed a 20-something security guard, who made a 911 call to police.

    [[[ MY comments: First major mistake by Scott. When asked to leave private property, YOU LEAVE. They asked first, he refused, they called the cops. His CCW was exposed, they made it clear they were not CCW friendly, you leave. Send letter to manager later telling them you will get no more business, etc, etc, but leave pronto. ]]]

    We do not know precisely what was said in that important call, because the police have refused to release it. We do, however, know from police radio traffic picked up by a scanner that the guard had told police that Erik Scott was armed with a gun, was acting aggressively and erratically, and that he may have been under the influence of drugs.

    It must have been a frightening tale: over a dozen police officers responded, along with a helicopter, ambulance, and competing incident command teams.

    As the police began to form a massive perimeter outside, Costco managers began evacuating the entire store without apparently explaining why to anyone. As Scott and his girlfriend exited the store he was identified to police officers, who were waiting with guns drawn outside the front door.

    A blog from Erik’s family described what happened next:

    Erik turned to find three officers facing him, guns drawn, and all three shouting different commands: “Get on the ground!” “Drop your weapon!” “Keep your hands up!” Erik held his hands up, spoke calmly, told them he DID have a concealed firearm and a legal CCW and was an ex-Army officer. His girlfriend was screaming about Erik being a West Point grad, former Army officer, etc.


    [[[ My Comments: Mistake number 2, his background is not relevant to the cops dealing with a 'man with a gun call', and her screaming would have only made it worse, added to the confusion,]]]


    Erik leaned to his left, hands still up, to expose the pistol, and repeated, “I am disarming; I am disarming.”

    [[[ My comments; mistake #3. Such a smart man making such a stupid move. Either stand still 'till they disarm you, or drop to the ground hands out, and wait for them to disarm you. NEVER reach your hand for that gun period. ]]]

    Witnesses say he started to lower his right hand, palm OUT, perhaps intending to remove holster and gun together — but never got the hand below his shoulder, when one of the cops (believed to be William Mosher, who had committed a fatal shooting in 2006) shot Erik in the chest with a .45-caliber semi-automatic weapon. Erik dropped to his knees, clearly in shock, his face a picture of disbelief. He was shot a second time and collapsed. The rest is ugly. The three officers unloaded again, firing a total of seven hollow-point rounds. At least four, possibly five, hit Erik in the back, after he was on the ground and dying.

    Two experts hired by Scott’s family examined his body. They claim that of the seven .45 ACP hollowpoint bullets fired into Scott’s body, one was fired through his armpit, suggesting his arm was raised at the time. Four remaining shots were fired into his back. There were no exit wounds, making it all but impossible for police to claim that investigators misread through-and-through wounds.

    Metro Police Captain Patrick Neville claimed a different series of events, based in part on the 911 call that police have not released:

    I could clearly hear the officers giving commands to the individual to get him on the ground, hear people yelling and screaming in the background. You could hear the shots being fired. When you listen to that, it definitely sends a chill down your spine.

    There are no commands or communications between Erik Scott and police captured on a nine-minute audiotape during which the shooting occurred. Officers not directly in front of the store are heard over the radio establishing a perimeter and trying to block off access to the store’s parking lot. The first indication Scott and the police have made contact is when a officer breaks in to call “shots fired” after Scott is on the ground, already dying or dead.

    In another interview, Captain Neville claimed Scott did not listen to police commands:

    He does not comply with that order. He reaches for the weapon, pulls the weapon out … uh, at which time the weapon was out of the waistband, the officers — three officers — discharged their weapons.

    Others on the scene did not see it that way. Robert Garcia directly conflicts the reports of police:

    I was close enough to see this guy’s face, and to see his hands, and to see his body go down.

    Walking just ten feet in front of Erik Scott, Garcia exited the Costco to see officers with guns drawn. He heard an officer yell: “Put it down! Get down!”

    Then he claims four shots were fired, and he instantly turned towards the victim:

    After hearing the shots I see the guy going down. I looked at — I saw his hands. His hands had no gun in it. I looked on the ground because — just, I just did that. I looked down and I didn’t see a gun. I saw what I thought were maybe sunglasses. And a pen.

    This matches up with several other eyewitness claims that officers William Mosher, Joshua Stark, and Thomas Mendiola fired nearly immediately after shouting conflicting commands at Scott, giving him little or no time to respond. Four other witnesses within 20 feet of the store’s entrance all agree that Scott never brandished a weapon or made a move that could be interpreted as brandishing a weapon.

    A coroner’s inquest is to be held next week, but the outcome seems foreordained. In the past 34 years, only one Metro officer has ever been found to have acted improperly out of at least 190 inquests, and that officer wasn’t charged with a crime.

    For the record, the Costco did not have signs posted prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons. Scott did not violate any laws in carrying his weapon in the store. It is quite possible that Erik Scott was gunned down without having committed so much as a misdemeanor crime, and that the officers who shot him will be merely the latest exonerated in a long line from an apparently unaccountable police force.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunned-...inglepage=true

    Agree with my above assessment, disagree? There appears to be some controversy regarding releasing vids, etc.
    - Will

    Performance/Fitness Advice For the Tactical Community

    www.OptimalSWAT.com

    General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

    www.BrinkZone.com

  • #2
    I don't know the ACTUAL facts.

    My bet is that if four cops discharged their guns, it was for a good reason.

    Comment


    • #3
      They won't release them until after the Coroner's Inquest. It's hard to say what happened, but having 2 separate accounts of officers yelling to drop the weapon, then him being shot when he's reaching for it surely isn't a good thing. Multiple officers giving conflicting commands, maybe? One yells to get on the ground, one to drop the gun, suspect reaches for the gun to put it on the ground and is shot? There's a lot of missing information (which is coming from a sensationalized blog - not sure how 'accurate' those are supposed to be) which is why we don't like second-guessing things here.

      However, as far as CCW goes, you're right. He should have left when they told him to originally. All this could have been avoided.
      NRA Life Member

      The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. - Sir Robert Peel

      Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. - H. L. Mencken

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Michigan View Post
        I don't know the ACTUAL facts.

        My bet is that if four cops discharged their guns, it was for a good reason.
        +1, I am a civilian and don't even have a CHL to carry concealed and I even know you NEVER reach for a firearm with police officers present
        Entered Academy: 08/2010 Graduated Academy: 12/20/2010 Career Search: 12/20/2010 - Present Never doubt. Never look back. Never question what you have done. Live with conviction and honor.

        Comment


        • #5
          I have yet to see or hear of anyone get smoked for having hands up and going face down. You might take a knee in the back a little harder for not following commands, but you live.

          Erik leaned to his left, hands still up, to expose the pistol, and repeated, “I am disarming; I am disarming.”
          This is what pushed it over the line, misunderstanding or not and got him killed.
          The beatings will continue until morale improves.

          Originally posted by jcioccke
          After I hit it, I would be disgusted with her

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sgt. Slaughter View Post
            They won't release them until after the Coroner's Inquest. It's hard to say what happened, but having 2 separate accounts of officers yelling to drop the weapon, then him being shot when he's reaching for it surely isn't a good thing. Multiple officers giving conflicting commands, maybe? One yells to get on the ground, one to drop the gun, suspect reaches for the gun to put it on the ground and is shot? There's a lot of missing information (which is coming from a sensationalized blog - not sure how 'accurate' those are supposed to be) which is why we don't like second-guessing things here.

            However, as far as CCW goes, you're right. He should have left when they told him to originally. All this could have been avoided.
            The above ends with: "For the record, the Costco did not have signs posted prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons."

            Are they required to in the state of NV? And:

            " Scott did not violate any laws in carrying his weapon in the store. It is quite possible that Erik Scott was gunned down without having committed so much as a misdemeanor crime, "

            Not leaving private property when told store policy does not allow guns, would be trespassing no?

            It's clearly a tragic event, but the buck stops with Scott as to outcome from what I see. I don't know what SOP is for that PD, but 911 call by for "store employees reporting a man with a gun, possibly on narcotics, behaving erratically." must get your attention.
            Last edited by WillBrink; 09-20-2010, 04:11 AM.
            - Will

            Performance/Fitness Advice For the Tactical Community

            www.OptimalSWAT.com

            General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

            www.BrinkZone.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by WillBrink View Post
              The above ends with: "For the record, the Costco did not have signs posted prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons."

              Are they required to in the state of NV? And:

              " Scott did not violate any laws in carrying his weapon in the store. It is quite possible that Erik Scott was gunned down without having committed so much as a misdemeanor crime, "

              Not leaving private property when told store policy does not allow guns, would be trespassing no?
              If you're asking whether that policy is enforceable without signage - I believe so. It's been a few years since I worked there, though. And yes, it would turn into a trespass call.

              Originally posted by WillBrink View Post
              I don't know what SOP is for that PD, but 911 call by for "store employees reporting a man with a gun, possibly on narcotics, behaving erratically." must get your attention.
              Metro is absolutely an excellent department and a great group of guys/gals. They get things done and do a good job of it. As far as the 9-1-1 info - I'm sure that type of call would pucker up their buttholes just like anybody else.
              NRA Life Member

              The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. - Sir Robert Peel

              Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. - H. L. Mencken

              Comment


              • #8
                He should have left when they told him to originally.

                +1000

                You can always leave. It seems the cops were a little trigger happy if this guy really had his hands in the air. But then again, we dont have all the facts. Instead of showing his gun, he should have gotten immedialy on the ground hands out. The police will get the gun.

                Comment


                • #9
                  BTW,

                  I think the employee doing the calling needs a course in what is legal in regard to CCW in their state. I think we can all agree that this guy probably wasnt a threat and an "employee" calling the police saying Charles Manson is roaming the store with a gun doesnt help. If Cosco doesnt want CCW's in their store, there needs to be a sign so they wont come in. After all, most CCW's are law abiding. When he didnt leave the store when told, THEN he broke the law, in my opinion.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Stpn2me View Post
                    BTW,

                    I think the employee doing the calling needs a course in what is legal in regard to CCW in their state.
                    I would think said employee only needs to know what store policy is on CCW in their business. I do think it should be law that if your store policy is no guns allowed, then you must have easy to see signage stating store policy as to avoid such problems. I don't know if any such laws exist. Anyone comment on that? I wouldn't shop there on principle, and I would have told them such, but when told of their store policy, because my CCW was revealed to a store employee, I would have left to avoid any further issues.
                    - Will

                    Performance/Fitness Advice For the Tactical Community

                    www.OptimalSWAT.com

                    General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

                    www.BrinkZone.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      ^^^^ , (stpn2me), doesnt need a course....he told guy to leave because he was armed, guy didnt leave. Its a private business and they can ask you to leave if they wish...as Will advised, write a letter, sue, whatever....but leave when told by a representative of the store.
                      If he has a gun, he's a threat to LEO until they can determine otherwise. If he's reaching for a gun, I dont care what he's saying, (Im disarming), he's a threat. This is pretty much common knowledge that you DONT reach for a gun when the po-leece are pointing their guns at you. West Point grad doesnt know this?

                      Will made some excellent observations

                      I agree that Costco needs a sign if thats how they want to do it.
                      Last edited by crass cop; 09-20-2010, 04:56 AM. Reason: i type too slow
                      "I don't go on "I'maworthlesscumdumpster.com" and post negative **** about cum dumpsters."
                      The Tick

                      "Are you referring to the secret headquarters of a fictional crime fighter or penal complex slang for a-$$hole, anus or rectum?"
                      sanitizer

                      "and we all know you are a poser and a p*ssy.... "
                      Bearcat357 to Dinner Portion/buck8/long relief

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by WillBrink View Post
                        I would think said employee only needs to know what store policy is on CCW in their business. I do think it should be law that if your store policy is no guns allowed, then you must have easy to see signage stating store policy as to avoid such problems. I don't know if any such laws exist. Anyone comment on that? I wouldn't shop there on principle, and I would have told them such, but when told of their store policy, because my CCW was revealed to a store employee, I would have left to avoid any further issues.
                        I would say a sign is important but not the absolute standard...lets say some a-hole tears down the 2 signs at the front door...does that mean people can carry inside? When asked to leave due to their policy, sign or not, just leave. The business has the right to tell you to leave.
                        "I don't go on "I'maworthlesscumdumpster.com" and post negative **** about cum dumpsters."
                        The Tick

                        "Are you referring to the secret headquarters of a fictional crime fighter or penal complex slang for a-$$hole, anus or rectum?"
                        sanitizer

                        "and we all know you are a poser and a p*ssy.... "
                        Bearcat357 to Dinner Portion/buck8/long relief

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by crass cop View Post
                          I would say a sign is important but not the absolute standard...lets say some a-hole tears down the 2 signs at the front door...does that mean people can carry inside? When asked to leave due to their policy, sign or not, just leave. The business has the right to tell you to leave.
                          No argument from me. Signs or no signs, I assume that is a store's policy unless told otherwise, and if informed (due to exposure of CCW) of store policy, that's my time to leave and count myself lucky they didn't simply call the police. Although I do not agree with Cosco's policy per se, from the info we have, sounds like they actually handled it well. The employee informed him of store policy, which he ignored. Around here, they would have just called the police. I doubt very much he would have gotten the benefit of being told store policy so he could simply leave. The end game sucks, and I feel for his family, but he set the chain of events in motion for what I gather so far. As expected, other forums I posted this = evil cops killed good guy for no reason and it's all a cover up by evil Vegas PD.
                          - Will

                          Performance/Fitness Advice For the Tactical Community

                          www.OptimalSWAT.com

                          General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

                          www.BrinkZone.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by WillBrink View Post
                            sounds like they actually handled it well.
                            Right until they tell 9-1-1 that the guy is a drug-crazed lunatic with a gun. Must've been a communication gap somewhere...
                            NRA Life Member

                            The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. - Sir Robert Peel

                            Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. - H. L. Mencken

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sgt. Slaughter View Post
                              Right until they tell 9-1-1 that the guy is a drug-crazed lunatic with a gun. Must've been a communication gap somewhere...
                              Clearly. I didn't hear the 911 call, so I don't know where it all went south, but south it went. As you know, some times it's not one big mistake, but a chain of small ones that leads to disaster. Best not to be a link in that chain if at all possible.
                              - Will

                              Performance/Fitness Advice For the Tactical Community

                              www.OptimalSWAT.com

                              General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

                              www.BrinkZone.com

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