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Open Carry On Its Way Out In California?

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  • pfchell
    replied
    Originally posted by opencarry View Post
    I cannot say which method is best oc or cc, in my opinion both have their benefits and I think in the end each person has to decide which way works best for him/her. I see advantages to a visual deterrent having the possible affect of preventing something that may have happened and I can see cases where obviously having it concealed would provide a tactical advantage. Personally I flip flop, usually cc but OC here and there to, I really like having the option of either. I do not do anything to stand out, I carry usually one of three weapons -
    thats true.. it depends like if im going downtown where's there alot of yuppies and tourists from out of states, i go CC. but around at my farm or my small town or when im busy working the fields, i OC. it's just what is conviently for me.(sorry for being a bad speller)

    Leave a comment:


  • opencarry
    replied
    Originally posted by BCSD Frank View Post
    I don't know. And the carjacking/burglary argument is also true. I agree that open carry is probably a visual deterrent. I don't know that there's any empirical evidence one way or the other, though.
    I cannot say which method is best oc or cc, in my opinion both have their benefits and I think in the end each person has to decide which way works best for him/her. I see advantages to a visual deterrent having the possible affect of preventing something that may have happened and I can see cases where obviously having it concealed would provide a tactical advantage. Personally I flip flop, usually cc but OC here and there to, I really like having the option of either. I do not do anything to stand out, I carry usually one of three weapons - a Ruger LCR ( this is the most comfortable carry gun I have ever used ), a colt commander or a M&P 40 full size. None of those are overly obtrusive. I have the right to carry whatever I like but I feel I have the responsibility to my community to also try to make sure my actions and appearance are something that are "reasonable", there will never be a MWAG call with me carrying a assault rifle or a desert eagle.. I think there is reasonable and practical and I think there is idiotic, I respect peoples rights to carry those but question their reasons, having shot a ak all my life at some helpless trees I cannot imagine using it for urban self defense with the penetration factor

    Leave a comment:


  • pfchell
    replied
    (yawn) im still packing anyway.. (CC or OC)my mother packed also when she went out to feed the chickens..never had any permit or getting anyone permission. she passed away long time ago. (god, i missed her.) she never had any training on retention or other..she shot several predators in her time. chief wiggum, if you really are a cop, well, you're a lousy cop. sorry to say it bluntly.

    Leave a comment:


  • BCSD Frank
    replied
    Originally posted by opencarry View Post
    Are there other states besides Cali that require unloaded OC?
    I don't know. And the carjacking/burglary argument is also true. I agree that open carry is probably a visual deterrent. I don't know that there's any empirical evidence one way or the other, though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sgt. Slaughter
    replied
    Originally posted by Redders View Post
    Can you provide a link for this case?
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=police+no+duty+to+protect

    Leave a comment:


  • opencarry
    replied
    Originally posted by BCSD Frank View Post
    About the only liability I can see, with open carrying, is that if some thug sees that you have a nice weapon (or a nice watch, or a fat wallet, etc. etc.), if he gets the drop on you, especially if you're open carrying unloaded, your very nice weapon (watch or wallet) is now someone else's property.
    Are there other states besides Cali that require unloaded OC?

    Leave a comment:


  • opencarry
    replied
    Originally posted by MiGuy View Post
    DISCLAIMER: Be kind. There may be a handful of grammatical issues. It's late and my response is long. Please excuse them!



    I may regret jumping in this but after reading these posts I just felt the need to. Let me put in the disclaimer that I am a Police Officer and I have NEVER open carried before. I use to be totally against it. But, I have done quite a bit of research on this topic and although I don't do it (I do live in Maryland after all and I may be visiting family in Michigan in a few weeks and may actually try it out for the first time), I can't say I am really against it anymore. I AM however, against a lot of the Open Carry nuts over at Opencarry.org but that's a whole different topic.

    The way my body is, I had a hard time concealing a Glock 22 when I first got into Police Work. Carrying a Glock 27 isn't too difficult for me because it is so small but I also don't like to wear oversized shirts that are two sizes too big just so I can conceal. Sometimes I'm forced to carry my Revolver which not only limits me to 5 rounds of ammunition but takes away accuracy from any type of shot that isn't point and shoot directly in front of me if I end up in some sort of confrontation where I must use deadly force off-duty. So yes, I wouldn't mind open carry so I can carry a bigger firearm that I'm comfortable with that carries a lot more ammunition than my 5 round revolver or even 10 round G27.

    I believe it is a visual deterrent as well. From my research, as Opencarry has stated, I have yet to find anything that proves the argument that the guy/gal opencarrying will be taken out first. That's the same as anti-gun people stating that states turned into SHALL issue will turn into the wild west and there will be bloodshed all over the streets. IT NEVER HAPPENED. But, there have been stories where people have been caught and admitted that they were going to rob the store but saw an Open Carrier. Also, when I've done extensive research papers in High School and College, there have been Research done with Prisoners who have committed violent crimes and I don't remember specifics so if you don't want to believe me, you don't have to, but where the majority have stated that what they worry the most when committing these acts of violent crime is not the Police, but of the armed Citizen. So, if you don't want to believe that Open Carry is a visual deterrent, that is on you, but evidence is tipping the scale in that direction.

    As far as the comment about clogging the 911 system and legislation, that is actually offensive. You have all these brave men and women overseas fighting for OUR freedom and you may have been doing that when you were younger as I do not know your history and/or military background, yet you are stating how ridiculous it is to fight for something that we have the right to do? Although I'm not relating these Open Carry people to Rosa Parks or MLK Jr, but did you think the same when MLK was doing his protests? How ridiculous it was for him to bring all these Police Resources so he could march and do these protests just so he could be comfortable and live freely. Again, maybe a little outstretched but you get the point. A right not exercised is a right lost. You must be at one of those Police Departments where you are SOOO busy that you only have time to do the real crime fighting and these people lawfully doing something is too much of an inconvenience.



    The first sentence... I'm not even going to dignify with a rebuttal response because again as the paragraph above, is ridiculous. Your right. Forget your rights. Just because Chief Wiggum here is uncomfortable with you exercising your right, you should probably stop doing it and just try to for something else because it is more "convenient."

    About the whole individual intent is and how dangerous it can be. Why are you worrying so much about this open carrying thing? Look how many people drive and kill people? You don't know anyone's intent when they get behind a Motor Vehicle, which happens to be a pretty dangerous weapon and kills more people. What about the people that carry pocketknives? You don't know their intent. They may try to cut someone's throat. You might want to outlaw those. How about kids at the park with a baseball bat. Yeah, they may be pretending to play baseball, but you don't know their intent. I've seen some pretty good beatings with a baseball bat being used. As sarcastic as I'm being, I do understand where you are coming from but in reality you don't know the intent of anyone. And almost every object can be used as a weapon.

    You state you don't know the intent of the OCer is. You can't tell the intent of ANYONE that is doing anything but most of all, you don't know the intent of all these people CC either. And you know what, as a whole, gangbangers and these people that commit violent crimes with weapons, particularly guns, like to hide their intention and CC themselves (illegally). Thus far, people with the gun openly carried have nothing to hide. After all, now people are paying attention to them. If they wanted to truly do something, they would as statistics show, conceal their gun so no one knew they had it on them.

    Again, I never carried Openly and I was adament against OC, especially when I started as a Police Officer. The more research I've done on the matter I support it. Does that mean if I respond to a guy openly carrying (If I weren't in such a horrid state such as Maryland) I will instantly trust them and put my guard down? Not a chance. But, I will not be out for them and after all is done, I will respect their decision to protect themselves and their families. Plus, they have the added responsibility, if something happens everyone sees they have a gun and they have to be on an even better behavior because now they have the added responsibility to make sure to NOT escalate confrontations, because of their firearm.

    Is Open Carrying a huge deterrent and extremely effective? Right now, not so much. Not as much as it can be. I encourage everyone (that can legally do so) to get a CCW permit. But, even if 8 out of 10 people on the street are CCing, it is not a deterrent. If something happens, I like the odds of that something to be ended, but it is not a deterrent from it happening in the first place. I think if we get to the point where 8 out of 10 people are OC in public, the benefit would actually outweigh CC. Not only would it be a huge deterrent because the bad guy will SEE all of these people around them with a gun, but if they decide to do something stupid and violent, just as with the CC, it will be ended rather quickly. Of coursse, to get to the point, there has to be a lot more people OC that are doing it now. But, if all of these people that have CC permits right now all decide to OC, I am willing to bet that violent crime will drop dramatically, and I'm not a betting man. But, there are more people CC then I think most people realize, so it really would not be unusual to see people OC if that were to happen.

    Finally, because I'm just mumbling and going on and on. It is a nice alternative. I'm hopefully going to be starting at a new PD very shortly. Depending on if I can use some of my vacation time before I leave or not to go up to Michigan, I may have to go up and visit family after I leave here and turn in my creds and before I start the other place and get my new creds. I am now going to be disarmed. At least in Michigan I will have the opportunity to defend myself because they have Open Carry out there. So, I understand, although not the smartest in the world, why these Cali people open carried unloaded with a magazine with them. At least they had it, which is better odds then not having one at all if something were to happen.

    Okay, i think I'm done. I've rambled enough, and it's just about midnight so I don't even know if this stuff makes sense! To my fellow brothers and sisters out there, be safe.
    Very nice post and thank you for taking the time to write it all. I agree with everything you have here, I think the important thing for people to remember is that they most often see the bad side of OC on youtube ect and that is not the majority. It is the same if you look up police, they highlight the negative because it makes for interesting news, anyone with half a brain knows that that does not represent the majority. OC is not always about "shock factor" it is just another option of carry, if I wanted to shock people I would OC my ak, or CC a shotgun ( look up Michigan pistol if your confused on that one ) with it printing like mad. Open carry is not always about making a statement of political beliefs it is for some of us a comfortable method of carry and some of us see it as a deterrent. It is something not everyone is comfortable doing and thats fine, different strokes for different folks.

    Leave a comment:


  • opencarry
    replied
    Originally posted by Sgt. Slaughter View Post
    Frankly, by its very nature, a "visual deterrent" cannot accurately be quantified as the crime (or potential crime) never happened. One cannot dismiss open carry as a visual deterrent simply because statistics aren't available to disprove the theory.

    Similarly, I don't recall ever hearing stories of people singled out and attacked simply because they were openly carrying a firearm. That's anti-OC propaganda that I've not seen any data to support.
    Very objective and true sir.

    Leave a comment:


  • opencarry
    replied
    Originally posted by Chief Wiggum View Post
    Go back and read this whole disertation you just wrote then think to yourself this one thought...this could all be avoided by simply carring concealed.
    I do not need to avoid anything, if I am within the law my rights will be respected or I will use legal recourse to resolve the matter. Would life be better if everyone took the easy route? Something you should think about, it is something that bothers me a bit.. I am the only OCer I know and I have never pushed anyone to OC, but one comment that gets brought up a lot and a question asked is about police harassment. A lot of people I know are aware that oC is legal but chose not to do it based on fear of police interactions. I as a citizen of this great country have a problem with law abiding citizens fearing the police when they are not breaking the law, does this bother you?The situation is getting better but negative encounters still occur, it is a work in progress. As far as the public I can also say I get more thumbs up and good conversation about it while I do it than I get dirty looks by far. It is not for everyone, again for me it is not a way of life just another option of carry. You can like it, you can hate it.. either way it does not matter , its legal and you have no say in if I do it or not. I respect other people's right to live the way they chose and I expect the same in return if I am within the law.

    Leave a comment:


  • opencarry
    replied
    Originally posted by Chief Wiggum View Post
    And you can't document a single time where a open carry citizen as served as a deterent either.

    OC just waisted the time of my legislature and my tax money here.
    Were the OCers breaking the law? If not your legislatures wasted their own time and YOUR money, you can help handle that during the next election I would imagine if it is something you are upset about

    Sounds like you should work on making concealed cheaper or free instead of open carry.
    I don't need to work on anything, I can carry either way and I like having the option of doing so. I am just pointing out the fact that the one they would prefer you not do is free and the one the would prefer you do is expensive

    You can talk educating the public all you want there is still no way to for a citizen to know what an individual's intent is. The insanity I've heard from the OC crowd is that if you see someone open carring then you know theyare a good, law-abiding person. This is garbage and everyone knows it. There will always be people wary of an armed persons intent, sometimes EVEN when that person is a uniformed officer. Why OCers think they will create a pro gun/OC utopia by simply walking around with guns is beyond me. In fact, it looks as though this has now back fired on them. Nothing has backfired, this is not law yet and most likely never will be. You never know what type of person anyone is, citizen or otherwise for that matter. There is a audio clip from this weekend on OCDO of a LEO encounter from Michigan, the assistant chief of marrysville is on audio threatening to arrest open carriers for DC ( which is something that OC is not and case law backs it ), when asked on audio if it is something he is going to make up, he answers yes! based on that clip should I walk around wondering if all LEOs are possibly willing to lie to try and charge me?... I think no way in hell will I group the great vast majority that put their safety on the line for myself and my family based on the actions of a single tyrant

    Oh, and one more time since neither you, nor anyone else in the OC crowd answered, or ever does...how much weapons retention training do you do or have you done? How much do the OCers you know do?
    I personally work on it and have taken defensive courses, I cannot speak for other ocers since I do not know any, nor would I speak on their behalf if I did



    My comments in bold

    Leave a comment:


  • Redders
    replied
    Originally posted by The King's Fool View Post
    If it helps, the Supreme Court ruled in 2005 that the police didn't have a duty to protect a woman who had a protective order against her husband/boyfriend/whatever-he-was (a protective order from Colorado which had a mandatory arrest clause). That being the case, you probably aren't likely to be held personally liable. IANAL, though.

    That reminds me! A very heartfelt thanks to all LEOs who protect and serve, especially knowing that they have no legal duty to do so.
    Can you provide a link for this case?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sgt. Slaughter
    replied
    Originally posted by BCSD Frank View Post
    About the only liability I can see, with open carrying, is that if some thug sees that you have a nice weapon (or a nice watch, or a fat wallet, etc. etc.), if he gets the drop on you, especially if you're open carrying unloaded, your very nice weapon (watch or wallet) is now someone else's property.
    I don't see that as a liability, myself. No different than someone stealing (carjacking) your car or the knife in your pocket. In line with that logic, you shouldn't have guns in your house either, because a burglar may enter your house and steal your gun(s) there, too.

    Leave a comment:


  • BCSD Frank
    replied
    About the only liability I can see, with open carrying, is that if some thug sees that you have a nice weapon (or a nice watch, or a fat wallet, etc. etc.), if he gets the drop on you, especially if you're open carrying unloaded, your very nice weapon (watch or wallet) is now someone else's property.

    Leave a comment:


  • MiGuy
    replied
    DISCLAIMER: Be kind. There may be a handful of grammatical issues. It's late and my response is long. Please excuse them!

    Originally posted by Chief Wiggum View Post
    Visual deterrent is a farce. How big a firearm you gonna carry? There is nothing that can't be concealed. Stealth and suprise of concealed is superior to any speed gained by OC IMHO. Comfort...maybe.

    So by all means let's clog up the legislature with bills and 911 lines with "man with a gun" calls so a few people can be marginably more comfortable.

    Visual deterent? How about visual target. I know who I'm taking out first.
    I may regret jumping in this but after reading these posts I just felt the need to. Let me put in the disclaimer that I am a Police Officer and I have NEVER open carried before. I use to be totally against it. But, I have done quite a bit of research on this topic and although I don't do it (I do live in Maryland after all and I may be visiting family in Michigan in a few weeks and may actually try it out for the first time), I can't say I am really against it anymore. I AM however, against a lot of the Open Carry nuts over at Opencarry.org but that's a whole different topic.

    The way my body is, I had a hard time concealing a Glock 22 when I first got into Police Work. Carrying a Glock 27 isn't too difficult for me because it is so small but I also don't like to wear oversized shirts that are two sizes too big just so I can conceal. Sometimes I'm forced to carry my Revolver which not only limits me to 5 rounds of ammunition but takes away accuracy from any type of shot that isn't point and shoot directly in front of me if I end up in some sort of confrontation where I must use deadly force off-duty. So yes, I wouldn't mind open carry so I can carry a bigger firearm that I'm comfortable with that carries a lot more ammunition than my 5 round revolver or even 10 round G27.

    I believe it is a visual deterrent as well. From my research, as Opencarry has stated, I have yet to find anything that proves the argument that the guy/gal opencarrying will be taken out first. That's the same as anti-gun people stating that states turned into SHALL issue will turn into the wild west and there will be bloodshed all over the streets. IT NEVER HAPPENED. But, there have been stories where people have been caught and admitted that they were going to rob the store but saw an Open Carrier. Also, when I've done extensive research papers in High School and College, there have been Research done with Prisoners who have committed violent crimes and I don't remember specifics so if you don't want to believe me, you don't have to, but where the majority have stated that what they worry the most when committing these acts of violent crime is not the Police, but of the armed Citizen. So, if you don't want to believe that Open Carry is a visual deterrent, that is on you, but evidence is tipping the scale in that direction.

    As far as the comment about clogging the 911 system and legislation, that is actually offensive. You have all these brave men and women overseas fighting for OUR freedom and you may have been doing that when you were younger as I do not know your history and/or military background, yet you are stating how ridiculous it is to fight for something that we have the right to do? Although I'm not relating these Open Carry people to Rosa Parks or MLK Jr, but did you think the same when MLK was doing his protests? How ridiculous it was for him to bring all these Police Resources so he could march and do these protests just so he could be comfortable and live freely. Again, maybe a little outstretched but you get the point. A right not exercised is a right lost. You must be at one of those Police Departments where you are SOOO busy that you only have time to do the real crime fighting and these people lawfully doing something is too much of an inconvenience.

    Originally posted by Chief Wiggum View Post
    Sounds like you should work on making concealed cheaper or free instead of open carry.

    You can talk educating the public all you want there is still no way to for a citizen to know what an individual's intent is. The insanity I've heard from the OC crowd is that if you see someone open carring then you know theyare a good, law-abiding person. This is garbage and everyone knows it. There will always be people wary of an armed persons intent, sometimes EVEN when that person is a uniformed officer. Why OCers think they will create a pro gun/OC utopia by simply walking around with guns is beyond me. In fact, it looks as though this has now back fired on them.

    Oh, and one more time since neither you, nor anyone else in the OC crowd answered, or ever does...how much weapons retention training do you do or have you done? How much do the OCers you know do?
    The first sentence... I'm not even going to dignify with a rebuttal response because again as the paragraph above, is ridiculous. Your right. Forget your rights. Just because Chief Wiggum here is uncomfortable with you exercising your right, you should probably stop doing it and just try to for something else because it is more "convenient."

    About the whole individual intent is and how dangerous it can be. Why are you worrying so much about this open carrying thing? Look how many people drive and kill people? You don't know anyone's intent when they get behind a Motor Vehicle, which happens to be a pretty dangerous weapon and kills more people. What about the people that carry pocketknives? You don't know their intent. They may try to cut someone's throat. You might want to outlaw those. How about kids at the park with a baseball bat. Yeah, they may be pretending to play baseball, but you don't know their intent. I've seen some pretty good beatings with a baseball bat being used. As sarcastic as I'm being, I do understand where you are coming from but in reality you don't know the intent of anyone. And almost every object can be used as a weapon.

    You state you don't know the intent of the OCer is. You can't tell the intent of ANYONE that is doing anything but most of all, you don't know the intent of all these people CC either. And you know what, as a whole, gangbangers and these people that commit violent crimes with weapons, particularly guns, like to hide their intention and CC themselves (illegally). Thus far, people with the gun openly carried have nothing to hide. After all, now people are paying attention to them. If they wanted to truly do something, they would as statistics show, conceal their gun so no one knew they had it on them.

    Again, I never carried Openly and I was adament against OC, especially when I started as a Police Officer. The more research I've done on the matter I support it. Does that mean if I respond to a guy openly carrying (If I weren't in such a horrid state such as Maryland) I will instantly trust them and put my guard down? Not a chance. But, I will not be out for them and after all is done, I will respect their decision to protect themselves and their families. Plus, they have the added responsibility, if something happens everyone sees they have a gun and they have to be on an even better behavior because now they have the added responsibility to make sure to NOT escalate confrontations, because of their firearm.

    Is Open Carrying a huge deterrent and extremely effective? Right now, not so much. Not as much as it can be. I encourage everyone (that can legally do so) to get a CCW permit. But, even if 8 out of 10 people on the street are CCing, it is not a deterrent. If something happens, I like the odds of that something to be ended, but it is not a deterrent from it happening in the first place. I think if we get to the point where 8 out of 10 people are OC in public, the benefit would actually outweigh CC. Not only would it be a huge deterrent because the bad guy will SEE all of these people around them with a gun, but if they decide to do something stupid and violent, just as with the CC, it will be ended rather quickly. Of coursse, to get to the point, there has to be a lot more people OC that are doing it now. But, if all of these people that have CC permits right now all decide to OC, I am willing to bet that violent crime will drop dramatically, and I'm not a betting man. But, there are more people CC then I think most people realize, so it really would not be unusual to see people OC if that were to happen.

    Finally, because I'm just mumbling and going on and on. It is a nice alternative. I'm hopefully going to be starting at a new PD very shortly. Depending on if I can use some of my vacation time before I leave or not to go up to Michigan, I may have to go up and visit family after I leave here and turn in my creds and before I start the other place and get my new creds. I am now going to be disarmed. At least in Michigan I will have the opportunity to defend myself because they have Open Carry out there. So, I understand, although not the smartest in the world, why these Cali people open carried unloaded with a magazine with them. At least they had it, which is better odds then not having one at all if something were to happen.

    Okay, i think I'm done. I've rambled enough, and it's just about midnight so I don't even know if this stuff makes sense! To my fellow brothers and sisters out there, be safe.
    Last edited by MiGuy; 06-06-2010, 11:53 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • BCSD Frank
    replied
    Originally posted by equinox137 View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't a lot of rural LE agencies drop such calls without specific info? I remember hearing about city dwellers moving to the country and calling 911 on hunters as "men with guns"....

    This is a urban vs. rural thing, or so it seems.
    I think you're right. It's not that the calls are dropped, but especially during hunting season(s), those kinds of calls simply don't come in. They generally come in as trespassing/poaching calls.

    Leave a comment:

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