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  • CCW and the Security Guard

    well, we just had an interesting discussion at work. One of our officers is a Sheriff deputy and had training yesterday. He brought it to work and we discussed it today.

    We are in the state of Michigan.

    Open Carry

    Michigan has always had open carry, though many local agencies have used "disturbing the peace" as a means to pull these people off the street. well, now there has been a recent court decision, and an award of $600,000 dollars to an open carry fan because the police stopped him, asked for his I.D., and took him to jail.

    SO, in this local jurisdiction, officers will no longer stop and demand to see an I.D. for anyone who open carries. they can ask politiely, but the person can refuse.

    This differs from the car where according to the law, a weapon cannot be openly displayed. It has to be locked in the trunk unloaded. Also, If concealed, I have to inform the officer I am armed.

    Concealed carry in the car is legal.

    So I cannot put my gun in the netting by my knee or a holster in the door, even though it is concealed. Even though I have a CCW.

    But I can walk around the county park with it in plain view.

    Now the problem. We work security.

    There are no safety clearing barrels at any of our locations. the federal government does not want us loading and unloading in their lot or their buildings. So our guns have to be brought to work loaded.

    Most of us dress at home, put on the duty belt, and drive to work. In uniform, the gun is plainly visible. I cannot easily hide it. This appears to be a violation of the state law.

    when the trainer was asked, he said he couldn't provide an answer, that it would be up to the disgression of the officer if we were stopped for a traffic violation.

    So, to sum up...

    We have to bring the gun loaded into work.
    It cannot be concealed in the duty belt.
    It cannot be carried unloaded in the trunk.
    It cannot be transfered from concealed to duty belt at work.

    By the letter, the law says this is illegal.

    What can we do? Do we need to do anything?
    Though their numbers are many, as the grass upon the field, we will count them at the end of the day.

  • #2
    appears as if you are screwed

    found this -

    2. I work as a security guard. Does my profession entitle me to carry a concealed pistol without a license in Michigan as required by my employer?

    MCL 750.227 No. You can only carry a pistol while on duty on the premises of your employer and only if it is exposed.

    If you wish to carry a pistol concealed, you must obtain a concealed pistol license through the county gun board.

    it appears you can carry on your permit but it needs to be concealed. or you unload it and lock it in the trunk, or your contaract/employer buys you a clearing barrel

    Comment


    • #3
      Ah yes, the EXPERTS at OC.com

      Comment


      • #4
        To get the most accurate answer, contact your state's regulating agency for security guards. Seeking advice on a little known matter such as this, from an internet forum may lead to trouble later on down the road.

        -SC
        Education ... has produced a vast population able to read but unable to distinguish what is worth reading.
        - G. M. Trevelyan

        B.S. Business Administration - Texas A&M 1990
        MPA - University of Texas Dallas 2004
        Graduate Certificate in Criminal Justice - American Military University 2006
        Graduate Certificate in Accounting - University of Dallas 2008
        Various Graduate Credits - UoP
        MA Christian Ministry Chaplaincy Dallas Baptist University 20%
        DPA Valdosta State 30%

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by shelbyfan
          according to OpenCarry.org as long as you possess the CCW you can OC in the car http://www.opencarry.org/mi.html
          Did you notice this handy little disclaimer on the website?

          We make every effort to provide correct information on this site. However, the legal landscape surrounding open carry is fluid and subject to a myriad of political influences in the various states. Therefore, any and all information you glean from this site should be independently verified!
          Personally I wouldn't trust opencarry.org even if they weren't the arrogant tools they really are.

          -SC
          Education ... has produced a vast population able to read but unable to distinguish what is worth reading.
          - G. M. Trevelyan

          B.S. Business Administration - Texas A&M 1990
          MPA - University of Texas Dallas 2004
          Graduate Certificate in Criminal Justice - American Military University 2006
          Graduate Certificate in Accounting - University of Dallas 2008
          Various Graduate Credits - UoP
          MA Christian Ministry Chaplaincy Dallas Baptist University 20%
          DPA Valdosta State 30%

          Comment


          • #6
            Well, I hope any officers that pull me over are understanding. I have never had a problem with them so far, but I hate being in a gray area of the law.
            Though their numbers are many, as the grass upon the field, we will count them at the end of the day.

            Comment


            • #7
              I have never read MI revised code, but Ohio Revised Code is not TOO hard to read, and it is usually the best way to make an informed decision.

              In Ohio law there is no "grey" area about the practice of OC being legal in or out of a vehicle, and IN a vehicle the firearm is considered "concealed" even if carried in plain sight.

              Bill
              Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

              Comment


              • #8
                It's been mentioned, and I agree, we can't interpret Michigan Law for you. While you're checking with your regulatory authorities, I'd suggest you carry your weapon in the trunk of your car, going to, returning home from work.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Why do you need a clearing barrel to load or unload your gun? While unloading it a clearing barrel is ideal but you don't need one. Just point it in a safe direction (like down). After clearing the chamber you don't have to drop the hammer.

                  And loading it is just putting in the mag and working the slide. If you're following gun safety rules you don't need a clearing barrel.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There is no safe direction where I work, and the contract holder does not want weapons loaded or unloaded on the property.
                    Though their numbers are many, as the grass upon the field, we will count them at the end of the day.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Isn't there a 'coming to or going from such duty' clause in the security laws?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You can't carry in loaded and you can't carry it in unloaded? And it doesn't matter because you can't have it there at all? Despite the fact it's you're workplace where you're required to carry it?

                        No safe direction?

                        You're making no sense at all. I'm not trying to flame you but it sounds to me like you're either trying to set yourself up as a victim by including only the facts you want or you're trying to justify breaking some rule or law (using the same methods).
                        Last edited by jakflak; 10-30-2009, 07:12 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by kingsman View Post
                          well, we just had an interesting discussion at work. One of our officers is a Sheriff deputy and had training yesterday. He brought it to work and we discussed it today.

                          We are in the state of Michigan.

                          Open Carry

                          Michigan has always had open carry, though many local agencies have used "disturbing the peace" as a means to pull these people off the street. well, now there has been a recent court decision, and an award of $600,000 dollars to an open carry fan because the police stopped him, asked for his I.D., and took him to jail.
                          I’d like to know where this took place.



                          Originally posted by kingsman View Post

                          SO, in this local jurisdiction, officers will no longer stop and demand to see an I.D. for anyone who open carries. they can ask politiely, but the person can refuse.
                          True.



                          Originally posted by kingsman View Post

                          This differs from the car where according to the law, a weapon cannot be openly displayed. It has to be locked in the trunk unloaded. Also, If concealed, I have to inform the officer I am armed.
                          This is unnecessary under your CPL. Michigan law is funny in the way it defines things. An openly carried pistol in the passenger compartment needs a CPL. With a CPL (assuming that’s what you meant by “CCW”. As you’ll see below, CCW is a five-year felony here in Michigan), you may openly carry in the vehicle.

                          You are required to disclose if carrying in the car.



                          Originally posted by kingsman View Post

                          Concealed carry in the car is legal.
                          So is open carry, and both CC and OC inside the car require a CPL.




                          Originally posted by kingsman View Post

                          So I cannot put my gun in the netting by my knee or a holster in the door, even though it is concealed. Even though I have a CCW.
                          This is simply not true (again assuming you have a CPL. IF you do truly have a CCW, then as a felon, you shouldn't have the gun at all). Whoever told you that should be challenged to show you the law that restricts such action.



                          Originally posted by kingsman View Post

                          But I can walk around the county park with it in plain view.
                          Correct.




                          Originally posted by kingsman View Post

                          Now the problem. We work security.

                          There are no safety clearing barrels at any of our locations. the federal government does not want us loading and unloading in their lot or their buildings. So our guns have to be brought to work loaded.

                          Most of us dress at home, put on the duty belt, and drive to work. In uniform, the gun is plainly visible. I cannot easily hide it. This appears to be a violation of the state law.
                          If the person has a CPL, then this is not a violation of any law I know of, and I highly doubt it’s a violation of any law anyone else here knows of either.




                          Originally posted by kingsman View Post

                          when the trainer was asked, he said he couldn't provide an answer, that it would be up to the disgression of the officer if we were stopped for a traffic violation.

                          So, to sum up...

                          We have to bring the gun loaded into work.
                          It cannot be concealed in the duty belt.
                          It cannot be carried unloaded in the trunk.
                          It cannot be transfered from concealed to duty belt at work.

                          By the letter, the law says this is illegal.

                          What can we do? Do we need to do anything?
                          Yes. Read the actuall MCL’s your referring to. Then you’ll realize that it isn’t the problem you think it is.

                          http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...me=mcl-750-227

                          MCL 750.227 (subsection (2)) states.



                          (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think I've got a solution for you, I've worked security for a while now, and up until some recent changes, I had the same problem you do, and this is what I did.

                            Get a small soft side pistol case, put your weapon in it, and put it in your trunk.
                            drive to work and when you arrive, go in the trunk, get the case out, sit back down in your car, and in the privacy of your own vehicle, put your weapon in your holster, and there ya go, your on site, no one saw your place your weapon in, you didn't to drive work with your weapon on.

                            I always did this about a block before myself, just because I worked low-income housing, and I'd rather not be there unarmed.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I am not a lawyer, but I agree with the above poster that you can transport your pistol in a vehicle "concealed or otherwise" as long as you have a valid cpl. At least that's what mcl 750.227 seems to indicate.

                              http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...ND%20concealed

                              since you have a license to carry the pistol (cpl) you are clearly exempted and you can transport a pistol inside your vehicle however you choose. openly, concealed on your person, or concealed inside the vehicle itself ie: the glovebox.

                              and you do have to disclose if you are carrying inside the occupant compartment of your vehicle and or if it is loaded. If the pistol is unloaded, in a case, and in your trunk you do not have to disclose. You also do not have to disclose if you are open carrying outside of your vehicle....although if you are in possession of a pistol i think it is always a good idea to disclose.

                              " An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:"

                              here's the link:

                              http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...AND%20disclose
                              Last edited by lapeer30; 11-02-2009, 02:31 PM.

                              Comment

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