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For those who still believe all CCW permit holders are "good guys"

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  • Taylor13
    replied
    I saw the questions for buying a gun, or maybe it was for a CCW permit. One of the questions was "Are you a legal citizen of the United States" and then another was something like "Do you have any active felony warrants" LMAO.

    Leave a comment:


  • DAL
    replied
    Originally posted by velobard View Post
    You base this on what? As a civilian with a ccw I have researched a number of other states' ccw laws. I am responsible for abiding by their laws when I travel, I have investigated the factors involved with states that issue permits to residents other states, and the laws that were researched when the Missouri ccw was written, and the differences in the law when I considered moving. Indiana ccw law has been strongly considered as a number of other states (including Missouri) wrote their laws.
    I base my assertion that "so unique" is an oxymoron on Webster's Third New International Dictionary. "Unique" is an unqualifiable adjective. "Unique" means "being the only one : SOLE" or "being without a like or equal : single in kind or excellence". Thus, something is either unique or it isn't.

    I base my assertion that the laws in the various states on my review of several websites, such as usacarry.org, and its predecessor site that describe the gun laws in different states. I also looked at several states' websites regarding their implementation and interpretation of H.R. 218, and those websites often discussed their respective state's CCW laws. And your description of what you did shows nothing to indicate that you have compared the law in Indiana to the laws of other states.

    Apart from the criteria for issuance, there is a lot of variation among states in what agency is responsible for issuing permits and monitoring their holders, the frequency with which they must be renewed, the fees, the background checks, what weapons are covered, and whether proof of proficiency and firearms qualification are required.

    If the details of a state's CCW law are a major factor in your decision about where to live, then you have a very strange psyche indeed.
    Last edited by DAL; 10-12-2009, 10:01 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • DAL
    replied
    First of all, you did not disprove what I said, because I said what I read.

    Second, Wikipedia is not an authoritative source, and I would be less inclined to rely upon it than the State Police.

    Third, the statute you quote contains an express qualification as to powers conferred under another section.

    BUT THE MORE IMPORTANT POINT IS: WHO CARES? Is Indiana Vermont? Are conditions the same in Indiana as in Vermont?

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  • velobard
    replied
    Originally posted by DAL View Post
    "So unique" is an oxymoron. Each state's shall-issue law is unique, and Indiana's seems to be rather weak in its standards and checks.
    You base this on what? As a civilian with a ccw I have researched a number of other states' ccw laws. I am responsible for abiding by their laws when I travel, I have investigated the factors involved with states that issue permits to residents other states, and the laws that were researched when the Missouri ccw was written, and the differences in the law when I considered moving. Indiana ccw law has been strongly considered as a number of other states (including Missouri) wrote their laws.

    Leave a comment:


  • DAL
    replied
    First of all, I asserted: "I read that some cities in Vermont have local laws prohibiting or regulating the carrying of handguns." The source I cited supports this assertion -- i.e., that I read what I said I read.

    Second, Wikipedia is a less reliable source than the state police website.

    Third, you have not proved your point because the statute you quote expressly states: "This section shall not limit the powers conferred upon a town, city or incorporated village under section 2291(8) of this title." We are left in the dark about what those powers are.

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  • velobard
    replied
    Originally posted by DAL View Post
    Time for you to provide your exhaustive search of all local Vermont gun laws.

    http://www.dps.state.vt.us/vtsp/faq1.html#VermontGun

    Vermont Gun Laws

    We get many requests regarding gun laws in Vermont. For information on this subject we refer you to the Vermont Attorney General's Office for a relatively comprehensive list of the laws pertaining to guns in Vermont.

    Please be aware that Vermont does not at this time require or issue gun permits. Some Vermont towns and cities do have local ordinances, so if you are planning on visiting, it would be wise to contact the local police chief to find information pertaining to local information.
    Nice and vague.

    I'm sure you're bound to love this source, but if you bother looking at all you'll find it validated by a number of sources. I'm quoting Wikipedia because in this case it's nice and concise.
    Vermont has very few gun control laws. Gun dealers are required to keep a record of all handgun sales. It is illegal to carry a gun on school property or in a courthouse. State law preempts local governments from regulating the possession, ownership, transfer, carrying, registration or licensing of firearms.[216]

    The term "Vermont Carry" is used by gun rights advocates to refer to allowing citizens to carry a firearm concealed or openly without any sort of permit requirement. Vermont law does not distinguish between residents and non-residents of the state; both have the same right to carry while in Vermont.

    The Vermont constitution of 1793, based partly on the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, guarantees certain freedoms and rights to the citizens: "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State — and as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power."[217]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law...state)#Vermont

    There's also this:
    24 V.S.A. § 2295. Authority of municipal and county governments to regulate firearms, ammunition,
    hunting, fishing and trapping
    Except as otherwise provided by law, no town, city or incorporated village, by ordinance, resolution or other
    enactment, shall directly regulate hunting, fishing and trapping or the possession, ownership, transportation,
    transfer, sale, purchase, carrying, licensing or registration of traps, firearms, ammunition or components of
    firearms or ammunition. This section shall not limit the powers conferred upon a town, city or incorporated
    village under section 2291(8) of this title. The provisions of this section shall supersede any inconsistent
    provisions of a municipal charter.
    (Added 1987, No. 178 (Adj. Sess.), eff. May 9, 1988.)
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/vermont.pdf
    Last edited by velobard; 10-12-2009, 08:47 PM.

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  • RR_Security
    replied
    Well, let's see--if the only crime ever committed with a registered full-auto weapon was committed by a police officer, should we blame
    a) The gun
    b) Police officers
    c) Gun owners in general
    d) All of the above
    e) None of the above
    Anyone trying to answer 'a' and 'c' is probably a member of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Guns, Period.

    All sarcasm aside, what the article suggests to me is that Indiana SP needs to get with the program as far as issuing CCW permits.

    Leave a comment:


  • DAL
    replied
    Originally posted by velobard View Post
    There are 48 states with some sort of ccw permit, most of those are "shall-issue". The ccw law in Indiana isn't so unique.
    "So unique" is an oxymoron. Each state's shall-issue law is unique, and Indiana's seems to be rather weak in its standards and checks.

    Leave a comment:


  • DAL
    replied
    Originally posted by velobard View Post
    Wrong. If you have any proof of this I'd love to see it.
    Time for you to provide your exhaustive search of all local Vermont gun laws.

    http://www.dps.state.vt.us/vtsp/faq1.html#VermontGun

    Vermont Gun Laws

    We get many requests regarding gun laws in Vermont. For information on this subject we refer you to the Vermont Attorney General's Office for a relatively comprehensive list of the laws pertaining to guns in Vermont.

    Please be aware that Vermont does not at this time require or issue gun permits. Some Vermont towns and cities do have local ordinances, so if you are planning on visiting, it would be wise to contact the local police chief to find information pertaining to local information.

    Leave a comment:


  • velobard
    replied
    Originally posted by DAL View Post
    I read that some cities in Vermont have local laws prohibiting or regulating the carrying of handguns.
    Wrong. If you have any proof of this I'd love to see it.

    There are 48 states with some sort of ccw permit, most of those are "shall-issue". The ccw law in Indiana isn't so unique.

    Leave a comment:


  • ZoomByU
    replied
    cliff notes please?

    Leave a comment:


  • DAL
    replied
    Originally posted by velobard View Post
    You'd really hate living in Vermont. They have never required any sort of permit to ccw.
    My life does not turn on firearms laws. I probably would dislike living in Vermont because of the weather, not its gun laws.

    I read that some cities in Vermont have local laws prohibiting or regulating the carrying of handguns. I think that is unworkable.

    The population and crime problems of the states vary. Vermont is pretty much a rural state. There is no place like Gary, Indiana in Vermont. If there were, Vermont would probably have different laws about carrying weapons.

    Leave a comment:


  • velobard
    replied
    Originally posted by DAL View Post
    I read the whole article and understood it to be saying that the controls on CCW permits in Indiana are inadequate.
    You'd really hate living in Vermont. They have never required any sort of permit to ccw.

    Leave a comment:


  • mikeymedic
    replied
    either way. when I run a subject over the radio, and they come back as "known to have a weapon or CCW permit" I treat them all the same.

    Leave a comment:


  • DAL
    replied
    I read the whole article and understood it to be saying that the controls on CCW permits in Indiana are inadequate. In particular, I see the following problems (if the article is accurate):
    • Misconduct involving a firearm is not a basis for denial;
    • A misdemanor conviction for assault is not a basis for denial unless it is a crime involving an inability to safely handle a handgun;
    • A conviction for burglary or robbery that is prosecuted is not a basis for denial;
    • A conviction for drug use or possession is not a basis for denial;
    • A conviction for public drunkenness is not a basis for denial.


    Perhaps most importantly, there does not appear to be any reporting/monitoring of convictions to ensure that permit holders continue to meet the requirements. In view of the fact that permits are valid for four years are even life, this is a very serious flaw (if this is the way things actually work).

    Leave a comment:

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