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  • Are CCWers Considered Sheepdogs Too?

    We all know the analogy of the Wolf, Sheep, and Sheepdogs by Col Dave Grossman. It applies to the military and Law Enforcement. But what about Concealed Carry Permit holders? I've been to some forums and many of them also consider themselves sheepdogs, whose duty is to protect the "sheeple". Whenever someone new obtains their Concealed Carry Permit (or whatever your state uses for the acronym), there's usually a chorus of "Welcome Sheepdog!", etc. Quite a few of them seem to let that permit go to their head, and the fact that they are carrying a firearm seems to embolden some of them to the point that some of them are ready to intervene with any crime with their guns drawn. Some of them carry BUGs to their concealed carry firearm, extra mags, surefire lights, multiple knives, pepper spray etc, for simple tasks like mowing the lawn.

  • #2
    As far as I'm concerned it's all about mindset. There are many cops and military who dont hold the mindset but there are many clerks, cooks and nurses that do. Decide to be the sheepdog of your flock, train, be responsible and dont be a victim.
    My OODA Loop: Observe, Over-react, Destroy and Apologize.

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    • #3
      Yes, mindset is everything.

      Do I consider myself as a civilian sheepdog? Yes, but I know a lot of people that I consider "sheep" who carry.

      To make it worse, I know several who don't train with their firearm in every aspect, don't choose the right type of ammo to put down a human threat (got one buddy that carries only FMJs), don't choose the right holster (if one at all), think a larger caliber is more important than shot-placement, don't maintain their carry weapon, aren't familiar with their state/locality's laws on deadly-force usage by civilians, and honestly just would NOT have a clue what to do when the SHTF.

      They think that just merely having a gun for personal protection is enough.
      Last edited by Till; 09-02-2009, 05:24 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by LM20 View Post
        We all know the analogy of the Wolf, Sheep, and Sheepdogs by Col Dave Grossman. It applies to the military and Law Enforcement. But what about Concealed Carry Permit holders? I've been to some forums and many of them also consider themselves sheepdogs, whose duty is to protect the "sheeple". Whenever someone new obtains their Concealed Carry Permit (or whatever your state uses for the acronym), there's usually a chorus of "Welcome Sheepdog!", etc. Quite a few of them seem to let that permit go to their head, and the fact that they are carrying a firearm seems to embolden some of them to the point that some of them are ready to intervene with any crime with their guns drawn. Some of them carry BUGs to their concealed carry firearm, extra mags, surefire lights, multiple knives, pepper spray etc, for simple tasks like mowing the lawn.
        My personal, and I emphasize personal take is this. The purpose of a CCW permit is the personal protection of the permit holder,and possibly his family.
        While it's concievable the CCW holder could act to protect another party, he acts under no specific authority or mandate to do so. OTH, the Law Enforcement Officer is mandated to protect the public, is guided by agency policy, and presumably has the training to act as a "Sheep Dog". The CCW holder who acts intemperately, which is another way of saying stupidly, places himself, and the people he's supposedly protecting at risk. If his actions are stupid enough, they can provide more ammunition for the anti-gun crowd, who wants us all to be sheep.

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        • #5
          I thought a police officer had no duty to protect life or did I read the Supreme Court ruling wrong? Think LA Dep brought it up in another thread.... someone chime in if i'm wrong

          It's all mindset.

          It's a safe assumption to say that most police officers are sheepdogs and most non police officers are sheep.

          Another important aspect you're missing is that you don't have to be a CCW holder to be a sheep dog... a gun falls nowhere in the textbook definition, or Col Grossman's analogies, of the terms....

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          • #6
            In my opinion. If you have the training, and the willingness to protect, then you are a sheepdog. I hate people that watch a movie, get a gun and think that they can shoot the gun out of someones hand. They don't realize that it may seem easy in the movies, but when the SHTF, without extensive training, you'd be lucky not to hit the victim/hostage. Leave the life saving for the pro's...who intern leave it to other pro's in some situations eg. SWAT, ERT, HRT. You want to protect someone, be a good witness. You don't HAVE to use your gun, hostage situations don't always end in a hail of bullets; rather a lengthy discussion.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by jannino View Post
              I thought a police officer had no duty to protect life or did I read the Supreme Court ruling wrong? Think LA Dep brought it up in another thread.... someone chime in if i'm wrong

              It's all mindset.

              It's a safe assumption to say that most police officers are sheepdogs and most non police officers are sheep.

              Another important aspect you're missing is that you don't have to be a CCW holder to be a sheep dog... a gun falls nowhere in the textbook definition, or Col Grossman's analogies, of the terms....
              I'm aware of the ruling, can't quote or cite it for you. The mandate I refer to is essentially an agency policy matter. Put another way, I always felt protection of the public was one of the things I was hired to do.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by jannino View Post
                I thought a police officer had no duty to protect life or did I read the Supreme Court ruling wrong? Think LA Dep brought it up in another thread.... someone chime in if i'm wrong

                It's all mindset.

                It's a safe assumption to say that most police officers are sheepdogs and most non police officers are sheep.

                Another important aspect you're missing is that you don't have to be a CCW holder to be a sheep dog... a gun falls nowhere in the textbook definition, or Col Grossman's analogies, of the terms....
                Really "tired" of the attitude that people who DON'T carry guns( or want them) are somehow "sheeple". People FORGET that just as many tyrants have been BEATEN by will ,and quite a few haven't even though those who wanted to overthrow them HAD guns!

                Police Agencies can't be held liable for NOT providing protection against loss of property or a persons death from crime, unless that particular agency was grossly negligent in its effort to provide. Having said that,I get alot of negative comments because I happen to live in a "gun control" state( CA), but I believe that every person shouldn't just walk around with a gun "because"- a gun, like a car, is a tremendous responsibility, and I laud anyone who invests in the time to "be prepared" and acts responsibly with their CCW license. I have seen instances where people, who were well trained in unarmed self defense , have beaten the CRAP out of an armed assailant- when I've interivewed this "victim" of crime, I've found that they tend to be very humble and focussed people- i'd expect the same from acivilian who has a concealed( legal) firearm.

                The "problem" sometimes with people who "elect" to make themselves SHEEPDOGS is that they often don't take in the ramifications of their stance. Police officers are insured( indemnified) if they act and someone- hopefully the suspect, gets maimed or killed. The avg. citizen is not, and even in the "stand your ground" states, all it takes is a perception of negligence- no matter how well intentioned, and that "sheepdog" is in big trouble.

                I know there are alot fo ex- military, and gun advocates that feel they could do a better job than their local police( some of the pro gunner websites also tend to have a small element ,even on this site, of people who have an Anti- police/gov't mindset), but i wouldn't always BET the farm on that- even the "softest" police officers I've seen here in So.Cal, tend to be better prepared for a violent confrontation than the avg citizen- rightly expected- but even then, an ARMED, EQUIPPED police officer can himself/herself fall victim to a violent predator or criminal.

                The avg citizen- not wearing bullet resistant equipment, nor in possession of extra ammo/ a shotgun or m-4 carbine, nor in possession of a radio to immediately call additional help, nor in possession of less lethal options, can't compare to a uniformed TRAINED police officer, and no person should take the mindset that becuase they carry a weapon legally , they can "handle things" the same as a police officer.

                for those who have a CCW, train, prepare, and know your limits and liabilities. Always look for an exit strategy OTHER than the deadly force option, but be ready to deploy your weapon if need be. And "yes", if you can carry OC spray as an alternative in less than lethal encounters do so.....
                Last edited by DOAcop38; 09-20-2009, 09:24 PM.
                "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

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                • #9
                  We all know the analogy of the Wolf, Sheep, and Sheepdogs by Col Dave Grossman. It applies to the military and Law Enforcement. But what about Concealed Carry Permit holders? I've been to some forums and many of them also consider themselves sheepdogs, whose duty is to protect the "sheeple".

                  From a legal perspective, the answer is no. CCW permits are for self protection, not for protection of the general public. And many if not most permit holders have neither the training nor the experience required to fulfill the role they wish to assume.
                  Last edited by DAL; 09-02-2009, 07:04 PM.
                  Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
                  Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jannino View Post
                    I thought a police officer had no duty to protect life or did I read the Supreme Court ruling wrong? Think LA Dep brought it up in another thread.... someone chime in if i'm wrong

                    It's all mindset.

                    It's a safe assumption to say that most police officers are sheepdogs and most non police officers are sheep.

                    Another important aspect you're missing is that you don't have to be a CCW holder to be a sheep dog... a gun falls nowhere in the textbook definition, or Col Grossman's analogies, of the terms....
                    Damn Mr. President.....

                    Good point...
                    Originally posted by mookster
                    Sully, usually I hafta glance over your posts cuz my brain would have issues with the imagery you portray, however with that one I get it. I agree one hundred percent with ya.
                    Originally posted by CityCopDC
                    I swear to god you are not human. I know a rogue VI when I see one.
                    Originally posted by OfficerDotCom
                    I think no one is probably happier than Sully and I that we ARE NOT the same person.(seriously thanking God for that one).
                    -Frank




                    Old Physicists neva' die, they just hop on a horsey and fly away inta' an infinitely massive black ho ...

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                    • #11
                      Ummm..

                      Ya Guess i a' sheepdog....

                      Thar' is a officer here, and his Sig. Line goes somethang like..." I know tha' Launguage of violence, enough, ta' stay clear"

                      I was In one , one too many gunfights....

                      Tha Professor

                      RE: pullicords
                      Last edited by asullivan; 09-03-2009, 12:28 AM. Reason: Logic, Code.doc 11fa232/doc:w
                      Originally posted by mookster
                      Sully, usually I hafta glance over your posts cuz my brain would have issues with the imagery you portray, however with that one I get it. I agree one hundred percent with ya.
                      Originally posted by CityCopDC
                      I swear to god you are not human. I know a rogue VI when I see one.
                      Originally posted by OfficerDotCom
                      I think no one is probably happier than Sully and I that we ARE NOT the same person.(seriously thanking God for that one).
                      -Frank




                      Old Physicists neva' die, they just hop on a horsey and fly away inta' an infinitely massive black ho ...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jannino View Post
                        I thought a police officer had no duty to protect life or did I read the Supreme Court ruling wrong?
                        If you actually read it, then yes, you did read it wrong. The plantiff in that case sued the local PD simply because they had been the victim of a crime. It was a random deal neither the victim nor PD had any reason to foresee. So, the SC ruled law enforcement has no duty to an individual citizen, in that they are not liable to every citizen who is a crime victim, simply because they were the victim of a crime. In no way did the ruling excuse negligence or failure to act. Did you really think officers could simply disregard any call or situation they choose?

                        Every time this comes up I'm sorely tempted to cancel my NRA membership, because they have gotten more mileage out of deliberately spreading this mis-information than anyone.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I can really only speak for myself, however I have heard other CCW permit holders express the same thought. I consider myself a sheepdog for my "jurisdiction"; myself and my loved ones.

                          In exceptional circumstances I would have to consider making an exception, but I would not do so lightly. IMO there are times when a person with good morals cannot stand idly by if they have the means to act. Here's one example.
                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soZT_...layer_embedded

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by swingshift View Post
                            If you actually read it, then yes, you did read it wrong. The plantiff in that case sued the local PD simply because they had been the victim of a crime. It was a random deal neither the victim nor PD had any reason to foresee. So, the SC ruled law enforcement has no duty to an individual citizen, in that they are not liable to every citizen who is a crime victim, simply because they were the victim of a crime. In no way did the ruling excuse negligence or failure to act. Did you really think officers could simply disregard any call or situation they choose?

                            Every time this comes up I'm sorely tempted to cancel my NRA membership, because they have gotten more mileage out of deliberately spreading this mis-information than anyone.
                            I don't want to get too involved regarding the ruling as I'm no expert in case law, but I see a little more to the ruling than that...

                            You're right... the ruling states officers(or the govt) aren't liable to crime victims... but you're missing the reason, WHY? It's my understanding they aren't liable because they have no duty to protect citizens (yes, there are exceptions), but rather to enforce the laws.


                            I have family that are NRA members, but I am not. I don't read their articles because most of it I consider propaganda.

                            I respect and appreciate law enforcement... I think they do a fantastic job with what little they are given.... I also believe that my safety(and that of my family) depends on me.

                            Also, I don't plan on standing around if when the SHTF and there's something I can do about it... I couldn't live with myself and I could only hope that someone else felt the same way if my family was in that position.

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              A CCW permit doesn't automatically give you a "sheepdog badge" and play hero. As mentioned in the book On Combat it really is all about mindset. Although, he mainly uses LEOs and soldiers as examples of sheepdogs, the author mentioned that civilians can act as sheepdogs and fight their agressors. One of his most memorable quotes of the book of a civilian sheepdog is:

                              "Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, “Let’s roll,” which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers--athletes, business people and parents--from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground."

                              Todd Beamer was an accountant.

                              Also here is a relevant news article in reference to a CCW holder:

                              The story of concealed handgun license-holder Jeanne Assam's brave actions to stop a murderous rampage killer in Colorado Springs, Colorado's New Life Church won't soon be forgotten.

                              From CNSNews.com:
                              "She probably saved over 100 lives," the Brady Boyd, the pastor of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, said on Monday. A church member dressed in plain clothes, killed the gunman after he opened fire at the mega-church. Boyd said she "rushed toward the attacker and took him down in the hallway" as he entered the building.


                              But takes this into account LM20, there were also two other CCW permit holders who did not draw their weapons because they were too afraid of what was taking place. MINDSET

                              I believe civilians (like me) are generally sheep until they are faced with a life threatening scenerio and that is the only true way to tell where you stand. Officers and soldiers on the other hand, they are exposed to dangerous scenerios DAILY and still fight on with barely any recognition but with a whole lot of disgust and scrutiny from the general society.





                              Futurelaw89


                              Last edited by Futurelaw89; 09-03-2009, 01:04 AM.

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