Cop killed by LEO

[texaschickeee]

well said LA dep.
Off duty....plains clothes, who knows who is who until later....after the chase.

[willowdared]

Thoughts and prayers for all involved in this tragedy.

[itnstalln]

This is something that the non-LEO readers/posters need to consider on incidents like this:

Although the off duty officer knows HE is the good guy, the on duty officers have no way of knowing that.....all they see is a male running with a firearm; in this incident, it sounds like what they saw was a male with a firearm chasing someone else.

When they confront this off duty guy, if he doesnt instantly comply with orders to drop the weapon, or worse start to turn towards the responding officers (maybe even to start to say, 'hey, I'm off duty and chasing this fool that broke into my car) they are going to shoot him on the spot.

They have no way of knowing whether he is a good guy, bad guy, or indifferent.....all they know is that he is an armed threat.

I have worked plainclothes on several occasions....I have had a gun pointed at me by another deputy (a trainee from the same station) before.....it is a situation that can go sideways in an instant. Unfortunately in the incident in NY, it did.

The guy that fired the shots will not only have to live with the fact that he took anothers' life, but that he killed a fellow LEO.

I completely understand what you've said but I do have a question. Very well put, BTW.

The off duty officer found a man rummaging though his car and scared him off. Either before chasing or while chasing he drew a firearm. Now he is chasing the suspect. At which point did the situation require the firearm or use of possible lethal force? Maybe the man had a gun, I don't know but if he did I figure the off duty officer would have fired.

He can't shoot him in the back and I fail to see how stealing a car radio puts fear of death or grave bodily harm in anyone, especially once they begin running away.

I feel as a non-LEO with a CPL, if I did this it would be brandishing.

[jannino]

I completely understand what you've said but I do have a question. Very well put, BTW.

The off duty officer found a man rummaging though his car and scared him off. Either before chasing or while chasing he drew a firearm. Now he is chasing the suspect. At which point did the situation require the firearm or use of possible lethal force? Maybe the man had a gun, I don't know but if he did I figure the off duty officer would have fired.

He can't shoot him in the back and I fail to see how stealing a car radio puts fear of death or grave bodily harm in anyone, especially once they begin running away.

I feel as a non-LEO with a CPL, if I did this it would be brandishing.

Please don't question the actions of a LEO who died by a tragic mistake. We will never know his version of the story. He saw a crime in progress and was trying to apprehend the criminal. He was trying to do the right thing... that's all that matters.

If someone breaks into your car and they flee...let them. Your life is not in danger nor is your property at risk anymore. Be a good witness and call the police. Do not chase. You don't know if he is armed or if he has accomplices. Also, you don't want to run the mistake of being identified as a bad guy.

There is no one else monday morning quarterbacking it than the LEO who fired the shots. One could only imagine the pain and agony he is going through right now.

[TheKansan]

This sucks for all involved. R.I.P brother. I can't even begin to imagine what the officer that fired is going through. The NY media will almost certainly make it worse. My deepest sympathy goes out for all involved.

The sad truth is that this seems to happen about once a year somewhere in the country. NY has had several in the past few years.

Taking action while off duty is probably one of the most dangerous things that any of us can do. The only way to handle any action taken off duty is to expect that any responding officers will not know you and will not recognize that you are law enforcement. Any other assumptions can prove deadly. Everyone on the job or trying to get on needs to remember that if you are taking action while off duty in plain clothes from the responding officers perspective you are an armed suspect until proved otherwise.

How was the off-duty officer supposed to know that the guys in the car were even cops? They were in an unmarked car wearing plain clothes. If the off-duty had seen a marked patrol car with uniformed officers in it, he might have stopped immediately.

[jannino]

How was the off-duty officer supposed to know that the guys in the car were even cops? They were in an unmarked car wearing plain clothes. If the off-duty had seen a marked patrol car with uniformed officers in it, he might have stopped immediately.

All the more reason not to chase unless it's a matter of life or death.

[TheKansan]

All the more reason not to chase unless it's a matter of life or death.

So if you came home one night and saw someone breaking in your car, what do you do?

[ISPY4U2]

I saw this on the news today. Made me very sad. Best wishes to the slain officer's family and the LEO who fired the shots. It's a no-win situation. Everyone hurts.

[Dinosaur32]

RIP Officer Edwards


The training for for LEOs in NYC is when off-duty and openly carrying your firearm.....you are to freeze when confronted. True you do not know the ID of the challenger when your back is to him but that is a smaller risk than turning toward the voice. But that admonition is the hardest for all officers to make part of their make-up, especially the younger ones.

[jannino]

So if you came home one night and saw someone breaking in your car, what do you do?

Your scenario has a lot of variables but I'll play. I would immediately draw down on him and let him dictate my actions...he can comply with my verbal commands, he can become aggressive, he can flee, or can he make a move towards my home.

Only one of those choices would make me chase and that's if he heads toward my house... even then I doubt he'd make because I'd be putting 16 rounds down range quickly and decisively.

Still waiting on a scenario where a civilian should ever chase someone.

[shovel88]

this from the NY Times............


"Officer Dunton, one of three white officers in an unmarked police car patrolling the neighborhood, saw him racing down the street with his pistol in the air, and emerged from the car to shout, “Police! Drop the gun.”

Officer Edwards, according to the account, turned to face his unwitting colleagues, his gun pointed their way.

Several witnesses told the police that Officer Edwards never said a word. But one witness, according to a law enforcement official with knowledge of the case, said Officer Edwards might have managed to begin to say one word — “Police.” "


if this part is true it should explain why the officer would take the shot, tragic none the less.


link.....http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/30/ny...pagewanted=all

[jannino]

this from the NY Times............


"Officer Dunton, one of three white officers in an unmarked police car patrolling the neighborhood, saw him racing down the street with his pistol in the air, and emerged from the car to shout, “Police! Drop the gun.”

Officer Edwards, according to the account, turned to face his unwitting colleagues, his gun pointed their way.

Several witnesses told the police that Officer Edwards never said a word. But one witness, according to a law enforcement official with knowledge of the case, said Officer Edwards might have managed to begin to say one word — “Police.” "


if this part is true it should explain why the officer would take the shot, tragic none the less.


link.....http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/30/ny...pagewanted=all

People really think there is another reason why he fired?

[TheKansan]

Your scenario has a lot of variables but I'll play. I would immediately draw down on him and let him dictate my actions...he can comply with my verbal commands, he can become aggressive, he can flee, or can he make a move towards my home.

Only one of those choices would make me chase and that's if he heads toward my house... even then I doubt he'd make because I'd be putting 16 rounds down range quickly and decisively.

Still waiting on a scenario where a civilian should ever chase someone.

So you would draw down on him? Is that not the issue at hand? Keep in mind an officer would be much more likely to chase a fleeing suspect. Instinct kicks in when seeing someone committing a crime in front of you.

[silasblack]

it's possible race may have played a part in this. now hear/read me out before you click ignore. i am in no way calling the officer who fired the shots a racist. however, it is possible, had the off-duty officer been white with a "high and tight" there might have been a delay long enough for a safe ending.

now i'm not saying he had any ill-will towards black people. but most of my coworkers are white. the possibility that a white guy (of course depending on how he looks) chasing a guy with a gun might be a cop would flash through the brain more quickly than it would for a black guy with a gun.

this comes from me getting stopped by other cops that dont know me at the station asking what my business is there. i've talked to other black cops that have also had the same experience. it happens a hell of a lot more than it does to my white counterparts (again, i'm not counting those that work in an undercover capacity and have to look dirty).

im not judging what anyone did, just throwing out a possibility. ultimately this incident was a tragedy for all parties involved.

[E3CSHARP]

it's possible race may have played a part in this. now hear/read me out before you click ignore. i am in no way calling the officer who fired the shots a racist. however, it is possible, had the off-duty officer been white with a "high and tight" there might have been a delay long enough for a safe ending.

now i'm not saying he had any ill-will towards black people. but most of my coworkers are white. the possibility that a white guy (of course depending on how he looks) chasing a guy with a gun might be a cop would flash through the brain more quickly than it would for a black guy with a gun.

this comes from me getting stopped by other cops that dont know me at the station asking what my business is there. i've talked to other black cops that have also had the same experience. it happens a hell of a lot more than it does to my white counterparts (again, i'm not counting those that work in an undercover capacity and have to look dirty).

im not judging what anyone did, just throwing out a possibility. ultimately this incident was a tragedy for all parties involved.

Thank you, who feels it knows.