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ARTIE: Bladed Tools offense?

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  • ARTIE: Bladed Tools offense?

    O'siyo Artie,

    I wanted to keep this question clear of the gun control thread...

    Kindly explain a little more regards the ban on carrying a knife in your country. That seems a little bit too much, in that a simple folding blade or pocket knife is just a common item.

    (I am a retired Army MP, former city PD reserve officer and instructor, so I have some backgound on offensive knifes.)

    Could you expound?

    Jim Burnes

  • #2
    Jim Burnes,
    I cannot remember when it happened, about 3-4 years ago, an off duty police officer by the name of David Carty was drinking at a hotel in the western suburbs of Sydney with a couple of his mates. He had been working earlier and after finishing his shift, decided to have a few drinks with his mates. After finishing those few drinks, he was walking to his car, when he was approached by a number of Assyrian Knights gang members who started to push him around. One produced a knife and attempted to cut him. He was able to deflect the blow, but the offender ended up cutting one of the other offenders. That offender wandered off towards more of his mates. One was his brother, who thought that Constable Carty had cut his brother. That male and more of the Assyrian Knights attacked Constable Carty and one of them attacked him with a knife. He firstly had his ear cut off and then part of his nose. He sustained a number of stabbing wounds to his chest. He died at the scene. Some of the offenders were seen to be jumping on his chest as he lie on the ground dying.

    The police service went into shock, as you would imagine. The government was so outraged that it introduced the current knife laws. Basically, the law states that it is an offence to be in possession of a bladed instrument, in a public street, without a reasonable excuse. The onus of reasonableness is on the person possessing the instrument. For the purpose of the Act, a fisherman going to or coming from a fishing trip would have a reasonable excuse for having a fishing knife in their fishing bag. An apprentice butcher going to or coming from work would have a reasonable excuse for having his tools of the trade in his bag. Police have the power to stop, search and detain any person whom they believe, have committed or are likely to have committed any crime. It is an offence to sell a knife to a person under the age of 18 years. Yes, a folded blade is covered by this Act. A pair of sissors also is covered under this Act.

    I hope this helps.

    ------------------
    We are the Police! Resistance is Futile!
    "Minds are like parachutes. They only function when they are open." Sir James Dewar 1842-1923

    Comment


    • #3
      If that officer were killed by a car, do you think the Australian government would have introduced legislation to ban all cars from public streets?? What about if a ball bat was used?? What a joke and an example of a messed-up law that won't do anything positive. Would this law have saved that officer's life? No way.

      Hmmm...I guess if it has the remote possibility to just save one life, then it's worth abridging the freedoms of all law abiding citizens (because the criminals won't bother to follow the law anyway).

      Comment


      • #4
        Siyo,

        This actually is a tough one to discuss, because it seems so minor a matter. When I know I'LL be at the airport, I leave my pocket knife at home. Its not a big deal.

        However, that little folder is in my pocket all the time, and for no other reason than I have used it for more than 15 years!

        ARTIE: Are you aware of the combination tools now available for sale? They come with little holsters or belt clips, and are now even an issue item to the US Army and Navy and USMC. Of course, civilians also have them, they are part screwdriver, openers, file and a small blade. Is such a handy tool also banned?

        Your folks have agreed to gun control for your own reasons...ok.

        But when this total knive ban began, didn't any of your citizens, or political parties or anyone at all, say wait, this may be too much?

        Jim Burnes

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Artie:
          Some of the offenders were seen to be jumping on his chest as he lie on the ground dying.
          Well then maybe they should ban shoes as well. Shoot, why not ban feet too.

          I'm sorry Artie, I don't mean to in any way demean this officer. But these "knee jerk" reactions by politicians are in no way addressing the problem. All they are doing is furthering the cause of said politicians.

          ------------------
          SHOOT LOW SHERIFF, they
          6P1 (retired)

          Comment


          • #6
            What Artie quoted is in relation to the Law in the Australian State of New South Wales. There are different laws pertaining to knifes and other weapons that vary from state to state.

            In my area, we have two seperate pieces of legislation in power, have been for as long as I can remember.
            "Going Armed in Public" = This is where a person would have the immediate capacity to use a weapon. This might be a knife carried in the hand or a stick or baseball bat. There are provisions within that law relating to reasonable excuse. Walking home from a baseball game carrying a bat would be an excuse, as would a person carrying a knife from his car to cut some mushrooms growing beside the roads edge. Obvious examples of a breach of this law would be carrying a Sumari Sword through a bar (unless of course the person was a legitimate entertainer and it was part of his act). This law comes into play most commonly where there is an obvious situation where the item may be used as a weapon. For example, a brawl between a few people and one of them has a stick in his hand, or two people consenting to a fight and one draws a knife.
            "Armed With an Offensive Weapon" = this is similar to the example given by Artie. Where a person is carrying an object that can be used as a weapon, without lawful excuse in a public place has commited an offence. With the native aboriginal people carrying knives frequently (about half of them), an excuse offered by them that is deemed as lawful is "to cut up meat". Being that they eat their dogs, road kill or an animal they hunted, throw it on a fire as is, they need a knife to cut off what they choose to eat. Those that say, "for protection" or "to scare people" have committed an offence.
            The tool kit types referred to like the Gerber and Leatherman varieties are questionable. A person who carries it as an 'emergency tool kit' may be excused, but not on a dance floor or at a football game. The element here is lawful excuse. I arrested one guy with a boot knife. He had starpped it to his ankle before going to a bar, followed by a nightclub, followed by a walk down the street. His reason offered for carrying it "to keep me company". Whereas, a ringer in town one day had a boot knife and when I asked him his reason, he explained he carried it to castrate calves and had popped into town on his way through to another property. In this example, he is in breach of the law, but his excuse was reasonable, but not 100% acceptable. He was advised to leave it in the car next time, to which he apologised and now does so. As described above, a butcher carrying his knives would be acceptable, but not after he has finished work and popped into a bar for a few drinks before going home.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Don:
              Well then maybe they should ban shoes as well.
              I dealt with one guy who kicked a victim with steel cap industrial boots. He stated that he wore the boots "to do more damage".
              Offender charged with aggravated assault partially based on his own admission; he had used a weapon. I could have charged him with going armed in public, but that is a minor offence compared to what he did to the guy with those boots. He kicked him in the head 3 times while the victim was unconscious. Also charged with assaulting a defenceless person, assault causing bodily harm and commit a dangerous act.

              Comment


              • #8
                G'day all

                Jim - don't worry about your pocket knife. The law requires a reasonable excuse. It is primarily in place to prevent young males generally taking bladed weapons into niteclubs and the like. In other words - no reasonable excuse.

                The story that Artie tells is quite true. There is also the fact that there was a big upsurge in the number of knife attacks and fights in clubs. Queensland introduced a similar law shortly after two marines on R & R were injured by a gang using knives.

                I and many of my friends carry pocket knives or combination tools in leather pouches on the belt. It is common in Australia - particularly in the country. It is generally not an offence.

                As Rule says - it is the reason for carrying the weapon that makes it unlawful not the carrying of it per se.

                If the community didn't agree, then there would have been a change of government. Although there was some dissent when our gun laws were strengthened, I don't recall any dissent about the knives.

                It seems to work for us.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Rule.303:
                  an excuse offered by them that is deemed as lawful is "to cut up meat". Being that they eat their dogs, road kill or an animal they hunted, throw it on a fire as is, they need a knife to cut off what they choose to eat. Those that say, "for protection" or "to scare people" have committed an offence.
                  So in Australia, it is an acceptable practice to throw your dog or a piece of roadkill onto a fire, but it's not an acceptable practice to want to protect yourself? Very interesting. It's pretty sunny down there isn't it? I think your politicians spend too much time out in it.



                  [This message has been edited by PatrickM98 (edited 06-03-2001).]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PatrickM98:
                    but it's not an acceptable practice to want to protect yourself? Very interesting. It's pretty sunny down there isn't it? I think your politicians spend too much time out in it.
                    Surveys and Polls conducted across Australia show overwhelming support to this legislation. It is not the mere decision of the Politicians, but that of the people. Some people (a minority) even want to see police disarmed, but not the politicians.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      O'siyo,

                      Thanks. Now that covers gun cotrol and bladed tools ban...

                      How then do you explain that assult upon the Emu on the beach by 27,000 crazed military servicemen?

                      Jim Burnes

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jim Burnes:
                        How then do you explain that assult upon the Emu on the beach by 27,000 crazed military servicemen?
                        That was the US military here on a training exercise/war games.
                        And the number was far less than 27,000.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I really hate to say this, but I truly feel like it is necesary.

                          If that officer had been armed with his duty weapon, I feel like he might be alive today.

                          ------------------
                          [email protected]

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rule.303:
                            Surveys and Polls conducted across Australia show overwhelming support to this legislation. It is not the mere decision of the Politicians, but that of the people. Some people (a minority) even want to see police disarmed, but not the politicians.
                            Ahhh, ok I'll rephrase my statement then. The politicians aren't the only ones who have been out in the sun too long, so has everyone else who supports this garbage.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SpecOpsWarrior:
                              I really hate to say this, but I truly feel like it is necesary.

                              If that officer had been armed with his duty weapon, I feel like he might be alive today.

                              You might be right, but if I were that officer I would NOT have been carrying my duty weapon (remember he was coming out of a BAR when he was attacked). I don't feel that anyone should be carrying a weapon while they're drinking, LEO or not. You're not at your best when it comes to judgement, plus a lawyer would have a field day with that. So while he may have been saved if armed, if he was a smart person he wouldn't have been carrying to begin with.

                              Comment

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