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  • At the range

    For those who do not know, I work armed security for the federal government. We shoot the same course as taught at FLETC, only we use S&W model 10 revolvers instead of glocks.

    well, we had to qualify again today as we do every 6 months. So there I stood throwing rounds downrange as instructed by the range supervisor. 60 rounds for maximum 300 points. 209 fails. I fired 280.

    The problem is, officers who shot better than I did got fewer points. Why? Because while they could count nearly every shot I fired, the others decimated the center of the target leaving a one inch gap in the center, so they were given only 250 points.

    Seems unfair. So, how does your range master count holes in the target?
    Though their numbers are many, as the grass upon the field, we will count them at the end of the day.

  • #2
    ^^ They count the holes just before the body armor drill. If you have holes in the head, they wont count them as you are only allowed 4 to the head. You only need to get "X" amount of holes on the target. I forgot what the minnimum is. Once you get that.......

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    • #3
      Thats a strange policy. If you shoot one raged hole you are very unlikely to have dropped and rounds off target. Whoevers policy that is should get spanked. We count rounds but if they made a big hole all in the center its a perfect score............
      The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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      • #4
        Spread the shots out. Trauma is good.

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        • #5
          While not the same training, it was the same rules for CPL training. If they didnt see 10 seperate holes on the paper, then you didnt pass the test. Kinda lame if you ask me, especially for the people who are exrtremely good at shooting.
          The Red, Bold, Italic is my official sarcasm tag.



          "I think many years ago an advanced civilization intervened with us genetically and gave us just enough intelligence to develop dangerous technology but not enough to use it wisely. Then they sat back to watch the fun. Kind of like a human zoo. And you know what? They're getting their money's worth"
          George Carlin

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          • #6
            Sounds like an effective way to discourage excellence in marksmanship.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tucker6900 View Post
              While not the same training, it was the same rules for CPL training. If they didnt see 10 seperate holes on the paper, then you didnt pass the test. Kinda lame if you ask me, especially for the people who are exrtremely good at shooting.
              The key is knowing that it will be scored this way before you put your finger on the trigger. It's pretty unfair if you shoot a perfect group and then they decide to tell you "Oh we don't score based on grouping."

              If you are good enough to tear a big ragged hole when you're trying to, you should be good enough to spread out your shots when you're trying to.

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              • #8
                Back when we shot revolvers, if there was one ragged hole in the center, it was counted as a perfect score. The course of fire had something like the last two shots being from 25 yards. Sometimes when a guy had a perfect score going, he'd throw the last two rounds completely off the paper and no one was the wiser.
                Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. - Ronald Reagan

                I don't think It'll happen in the US because we don't trust our government. We are a country of skeptics, raised by skeptics, founded by skeptics. - Amaroq

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                • #9
                  Those guys are getting screwed. That's an idiotic way to score.

                  When I qualified at POST my target was untouched except for a small area in the center that was shot to smitherines (not bragging btw, although I did contemplate keeping that target). The instructor was trying to count holes for my score. I asked him if he really thought that was necessary. His response was I might not have fired all 60 rounds. I just rolled my eyes and told him my score better be 100%. There was no way you could have counted the holes.
                  He who laughs last.......thinks slowest

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by trouttrooper View Post
                    Those guys are getting screwed. That's an idiotic way to score.
                    Not really, it is just a different way to score that makes it:

                    a) Harder to cheat
                    b) Harder to get a perfect score since you must individually aim for every shot rather than maintaining a constant position

                    Plus, as jakflak pointed out, your shots against a human will be more effective if you hit them in multiple parts of their torso rather than hitting the same spot repeatedly. The difference is probably negligible but any advantage is an advantange, no matter how small.

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                    • #11
                      We start at the 25 yard line and work in. Eliminates that isssue. Guys that can shoot groups that tight are usually give 100%. However, the new school of thought is to spread the shots out to inflict more trauma. They found that if a bad guy gets shot in the arm several times, the body shuts off the pain receptors to that area and he can continue on. Shoot in the arm, torso and somewhere else, and the body cannot block out all of the individual traumas and shuts down.

                      But to answer the initial post, they got screwed.
                      Being a good street cop is like coming to work in a wet suit and peeing in your pants. It's a nice warm feeling, but you're the only one who knows anything has happened.

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                      • #12
                        Well the vast majority of LEO's are trained to shoot center mass. The theory behind most training apart from the most basic skills is muscle memory. I can draw and fire quickly and as long as I'm at the same distance all shots wil be close no matter how many times I draw and shoot. The same for each distance fired. I usually have a large ragged hole in the center with shots a little more spread out from more distant shots. I'm a prettty decent shot and an firearms instructor.

                        If I found out one of my other instructors was penalizing officers for being consistent shots and doing exactly what WE TRAIN OUR PEOPLE TO DO. I would seriously doubt their ability as a trainer.

                        When you need to shoot in a high stress situation you rely on your training and muscle memory. Hence the term, you fight like you train.

                        In my opinion your agency is doing your people a great disservice by penalzing them for being consistent.............
                        The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Fëanor View Post
                          Not really, it is just a different way to score that makes it:

                          a) Harder to cheat
                          b) Harder to get a perfect score since you must individually aim for every shot rather than maintaining a constant position

                          Plus, as jakflak pointed out, your shots against a human will be more effective if you hit them in multiple parts of their torso rather than hitting the same spot repeatedly. The difference is probably negligible but any advantage is an advantange, no matter how small.
                          That makes no sense at all.
                          Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. - Ronald Reagan

                          I don't think It'll happen in the US because we don't trust our government. We are a country of skeptics, raised by skeptics, founded by skeptics. - Amaroq

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by velobard View Post
                            Sounds like an effective way to discourage excellence in marksmanship.
                            thats what i was thinking

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                            • #15
                              Man some threads are good for a laugh, or a cry. The utter ignorance in some of the posts would be laughable if it weren't such a serious topic.
                              The comments made herein are those solely of author and in no way reflect the opinions of any other person, agency or other entity.

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