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  • #61
    Originally posted by DAL View Post
    Once again, the basis for suspicion is not "merely Open Carrying a handgun in a holster." It is carrying a handgun to a political rally involving a candidate for President of the United States, who is an obvious assassination risk. I would suspect that someone who did that might intend to shoot the candidate or to create a diversion that would facilitate another person's doing so. I also would suspect that the person was not mentally stable, for carrying a weapon under those circumstances is not something a sensible person would do. Moreover, I do not know that carrying the handgun is legal. It is legal for some people, but not for all. People who have been convicted of felonies and certain misdemeanors may not legally possess a handgun. Neither may people with prior commitments for mental instability or under injunction or indictment for a felony. Under the circumstances of this event, prudence calls for investigation.
    It MAY call for investigation, but not arrest, based on what is known. As far as being prudent... Dude was 2+ miles away. Where is the crime? Nope, wrong. Also, no one who has ever worked a Presidential detail would have allowed him into the secure area. That's why they have "secure areas" during these things. Outside that area, someone OC'ing may be a basis for an encounter, but not a detention. Just because some in our society are not allowed to OC, also does not allow investigative detentions based solely on those two facts. Shall we assume everyone is a criminal, and not allowed to OC? Just because you, as an LEO, does not know if the person is legally allowed to do something, does not mean you have the authority to detain everyone based on that fact, in places that OC is not infringed.
    As far as "rights" are concerned; I look at them this way... I don't tell you what church to go to, and you don't tell me what kind of firearm I can own...

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    • #62
      The proper way would have been to just issue the oc'er a secret service buddy to hang out with . If you can't bring they guy in or disarm him (and it would appear you couldn't in this case) just park an agent in his hip pocket for as long as necessary
      Today's Quote:

      "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
      Albert Einstein

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      • #63
        Originally posted by DAL View Post
        Moreover, I do not know that carrying the handgun is legal. It is legal for some people, but not for all.
        Well, then, pull over every vehicle on the road. After all, not everyone who is behind the wheel is supposed to be driving. Some never got a license. Some are driving on a suspended. Some are driving on a revoked. Some are down right criminals. You just never know, so it's best to pull all of them over.
        http://hoppeshomestead.blogspot.com/

        The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. – Thomas Jefferson

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by mdrdep View Post
          The proper way would have been to just issue the oc'er a secret service buddy to hang out with . If you can't bring they guy in or disarm him (and it would appear you couldn't in this case) just park an agent in his hip pocket for as long as necessary
          Given how far this guy was from the political rally, how would it be a wise use of resources to do that?

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by velobard View Post
            Given how far this guy was from the political rally, how would it be a wise use of resources to do that?
            Given the circumstances, I can understand why a watchdog could be placed on this guy. But what is wrong with a little courtesy? Why not approach the OC'er, ask him whats up, and use your super police bad guy radar to figure out that this guy is doing nothing wrong, and be on your way? Then if need be, place him under watch.
            I guess I just dont understand this "Arrest him and let the court straighten it out" attitude. All that does is cause alot of grief for people who dont deserve it.
            The Red, Bold, Italic is my official sarcasm tag.



            "I think many years ago an advanced civilization intervened with us genetically and gave us just enough intelligence to develop dangerous technology but not enough to use it wisely. Then they sat back to watch the fun. Kind of like a human zoo. And you know what? They're getting their money's worth"
            George Carlin

            Comment


            • #66
              Just to clarify, he was standing across the street from where Obama was. Obama was at the dome a few months ago and that does not have anything to do with the present incident. Very good graphic though, haha

              Comment


              • #67
                If he was as far away as Tucker's graphic illustrates, hooking him up for OC'ing is quite a stretch. As far as punishment, this guy's gonna walk.
                "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Orwell

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by eze284 View Post
                  Just to clarify, he was standing across the street from where Obama was. Obama was at the dome a few months ago and that does not have anything to do with the present incident. Very good graphic though, haha
                  Yup, it looks like you're correct. McIntosh Park is across the street from where Obama was appearing at Irving Park.

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                  • #69
                    It sounds to me this is another case of someone jumping the gun and worrying about the consequences later.

                    While I understand why police do it when a gun in involved, that doesn't make it any less unlawful or offensive.

                    As for the "psych evaluation" comment, I hope that was just dark humor. I would hate to think you believe that legal, if unpopular, actions would justify detaining someone in a mental hospital.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Mitchell_in_CT View Post
                      As for the "psych evaluation" comment, I hope that was just dark humor. I would hate to think you believe that legal, if unpopular, actions would justify detaining someone in a mental hospital.
                      Most things that result in detention in a mental hospital are legal. Putting someone in a mental hospital is a civil commitment, not criminal.

                      Once again, I was referring to detention in the field for investigation, not arrest or commitment. I do not know whether there was a basis for anything more than a temporary detention.

                      Here is another account of the incident.

                      Arrest at Obama rally sparks gun rights debate (PA)
                      Beaver County Times & Allegheny Times ^ | September 6, 2008 | Bill Vidonic

                      Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 1:27:15 PM by neverdem

                      John Noble said he’s openly worn a handgun while attending the annual Maple Syrup Festival in Bradys Run Park.

                      He’s worn it to a Bridgewater book signing.

                      The Industry man said he’s never been confronted by police over his habit of wearing a holstered pistol on his waist — that is until Aug. 29.

                      Noble’s arrest at the Barack Obama campaign rally at Beaver’s Irvine Park has raised questions about gun rights.

                      “There was no disturbance until (law enforcement) made one,” Noble said.

                      Beaver County District Attorney Anthony Berosh said the issue isn’t whether Noble was legally carrying a gun. State police said Noble did not violate the state’s open carry law, under which you don’t need a permit to carry a weapon in plain sight.

                      Instead, Berosh said, it’s a battle between two constitutional rights: The right to bear arms and the right to assemble peaceably and without fear.

                      “No constitutional right pre-empts the other,” Berosh said.

                      Berosh said Noble did not have the right to alarm anyone around him attending the Barack Obama rally in Irvine Park.

                      While Noble’s intentions might not have been sinister, Berosh said, “The people who don’t know him don’t know that.”

                      Noble’s arrest at the Obama rally has set off controversy. Gun right advocates say Noble’s rights were stepped on, while others say Noble should have known better than to take a gun to a presidential campaign rally.

                      Noble said he had no ill intent and that Obama’s constitutional rights didn’t take precedence over his.

                      THE INCIDENT

                      Noble was standing in McIntosh Park, next to Irvine Park, when people noticed that he was packing a gun in a holster and notified sheriff’s deputies.

                      After a brief confrontation Noble was taken into custody, and his gun, a Glock 9mm, was confiscated. He was questioned by state police and released.

                      Deputies and state police have said Noble did not threaten anyone with the gun, and it remained in his holster until it was confiscated. The gun hasn’t been returned yet.

                      THE FALLOUT

                      On Friday, state police charged Noble with one count each of disorderly conduct and disrupting meetings and processions.

                      State police wrote in a criminal complaint that they think Noble intended to disrupt the rally, because he posted a message on a Web site just before the rally telling people to “bring their guns and Bibles.”

                      State police said Noble put others around him in fear for their safety and that law enforcement agents had to abandon their posts at the Obama rally to deal with Noble.

                      State police did say that Noble did not illegally possess his weapon.

                      Federal authorities said they would not file charges against Noble because he did not enter Irvine Park. To do so, he would have had to pass through a metal detector.

                      THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS

                      Beaver County Sheriff George David said a person who is wearing a gun in a holster, out in the open, doesn’t need a license to carry that weapon.

                      However, a person who wants to keep a weapon concealed on his body or carry it in a vehicle must obtain a license. Extra permission is necessary for a concealed weapon, David said, because a concealed weapon poses a greater danger to police.

                      A weapon is considered concealed if it’s worn under clothing or kept in a vehicle.

                      While David said he’s a gun advocate, he said Noble should not have taken the gun to the rally because of all the security present for Obama’s protection.

                      “I don’t think this was the time or the place to show your rights,” David said.
                      Last edited by DAL; 09-12-2008, 01:32 PM.
                      Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
                      Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Well then, it appears my information is incorrect. When I was looking for Obamas location, the dome is the only one that showed up.
                        Thank you for the correction.
                        The Red, Bold, Italic is my official sarcasm tag.



                        "I think many years ago an advanced civilization intervened with us genetically and gave us just enough intelligence to develop dangerous technology but not enough to use it wisely. Then they sat back to watch the fun. Kind of like a human zoo. And you know what? They're getting their money's worth"
                        George Carlin

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by DAL View Post
                          Most things that result in detention in a mental hospital are legal. Putting someone in a mental hospital is a civil commitment, not criminal.
                          It still requires an adversarial hearing beyond the initial committment, and the 4th amendment is still controling law in this area.

                          Using a civil committment to detain someone when you do not have the ability to do so under criminal law will not shield you or your agency from liability in the aftermath.

                          While civil committment may be an option for you to use at the moment, it will produce no better results than an arrest for "Brandishing" or other drivel in this circumstance.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Mitchell_in_CT View Post
                            It still requires an adversarial hearing beyond the initial committment, and the 4th amendment is still controling law in this area.

                            Using a civil committment to detain someone when you do not have the ability to do so under criminal law will not shield you or your agency from liability in the aftermath.

                            While civil committment may be an option for you to use at the moment, it will produce no better results than an arrest for "Brandishing" or other drivel in this circumstance.
                            Once again, you are assuming that there would be an an arrest or an application for a civil commitment in this case, when I was referring to detaining the person for investigation, which could result in a release in the field.

                            Furthermore, the procedure for a civil commitment varies from state to state. In California, the police take the person to be evaluated by a psychiatrist, who makes an on-the-spot determination whether to hold the person for up to 72 hours. I do not know what the procedure is in Pennsylvania.
                            Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
                            Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by DAL View Post
                              Arrest at Obama rally sparks gun rights debate (PA)
                              Beaver County Times & Allegheny Times ^ | September 6, 2008 | Bill Vidonic
                              ....
                              Instead, Berosh said, it’s a battle between two constitutional rights: The right to bear arms and the right to assemble peaceably and without fear.

                              “No constitutional right pre-empts the other,” Berosh said.
                              Strange, the word "fear" doesn't appear in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by velobard View Post
                                Strange, the word "fear" doesn't appear in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution.
                                It's in the unofficial, living document, abridged & amended version used by people who have no clue what they are talking about.

                                Comment

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