Another taser death...

[Looker]

http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI94197/

SOUTHWEST MIAMI-DADE (WSVN) -- A South Florida man has died after, witnessed said, police used a Taser on him early Friday morning.

The incident occurred around 3:30 a.m. in the area of Southwest 107th Avenue and 146th Terrace. According to a witness, Kenneth Oliver was under the influence, knocking on people's doors, while screaming for help.

Someone called police to the scene who tried to get the 45-year-old to comply but were unable to. "When the police came, I told them, you know, 'He's under the influence, so you guys should be careful,'" said Paul Severence, a neighbor who witnessed the incident.

According to Severence, police told Oliver to get down and put his hands behind his back. Apparently, Oliver didn't put his hands behind his back quick enough and Severence said he watched police use a Taser three times. "They Tased him three different times. They just kept Tasing him. I told the police, 'You're going to kill that man,' so after they did it a third time, I just walked away," said Severence.

Severence said his friend saw police shock Oliver a fourth time.

Edwin Oliver said his brother has pins in his shoulders, which make it too difficult to put his arms behind his back. "He can't put his hands behind his back," he explained, "and they just start tasing him and tasing him until they killed him, and, you know, it's sad, it's so many incidents in South Florida with these Tasers, trigger-happy Tasers, and they're killing people and they try to justify it."

Oliver was pronounced dead at Jackson Memorial Hospital. Family and friends say Oliver had a heart condition and that is probably why he was wandering the streets asking for help.

Detective Robert Williams of the Miami-Dade Police Department did not confirm whether or not stun guns were used at the scene. "I know you're hearing stories an electronic device was deployed. We do not know if an electronic device was deployed yet. Until we're able to talk to the officers, talk to numerous witnesses here, the medical examiner has his job to do in order to examine the body, then we'll know for certain what was deployed or what was not deployed here."

Oliver has a baby on the way and recently graduated from Small Engine Mechanic School. He also had a lengthy criminal record, dating from 1986 to 2000, including drug charges, aggravated battery, and a probation violation for driving with a suspended license.

There will be a candlelight vigil for him Friday night at 8:00 at Walter White Park at 10804 Perry Drive.

Wow... can this news agency be any more anti-police?? If cussing were allowed in this forum I'd have dropped quite a few "F-bombs" by now. Holy hell.

I'm gunna re-write the story below.

[Sarkis]

I am disgusted of reading stories like this. I usually just ignore them.

Maybe, just maybe I should take some writing or journalism courses and try to get a gig on a newspaper agency occasionally writing LE stories (after I'm a police officer and know what I'm talking about).

[Looker]

I did not change the quotes, as they are actually people's statements.
The underlined areas are changes made to the "story."

SOUTHWEST MIAMI-DADE (WSVN) -- A South Florida man has died after apparently taking an illegal drug and resisting arrest.

The incident occurred around 3:30 a.m. in the area of Southwest 107th Avenue and 146th Terrace. According to a witness, Kenneth Oliver, with an extensive drug and other felonious criminal history, was under the influence of an illegal substance, knocking on people's doors, while screaming for help.

A witness called police to the scene and repeatedly tried to get the 45-year-old to comply but were unable to. "When the police came, I told them, you know, 'He's under the influence, so you guys should be careful,'" said Paul Severence, a neighbor who witnessed the incident.

According to Severence, police repeatedly ordered Oliver to get down and put his hands behind his back. Apparently, Oliver didn't put his hands behind his back quick enough

WTF is that crap?? How about...

When Oliver did not comply, police used a Taser. "They Tased him three different times. They just kept Tasing him. I told the police, 'You're going to kill that man,' so after they did it a third time, I just walked away," said Severence.

Severence said his friend saw police shock Oliver a fourth time.

So the first 3 still didn't work.

Edwin Oliver said his brother has pins in his shoulders, which makes it difficult to put his arms behind his back when being handcuffed. "He can't put his hands behind his back," he explained, "and they just start tasing him and tasing him until they killed him, and, you know, it's sad, it's so many incidents in South Florida with these Tasers, trigger-happy Tasers, and they're killing people and they try to justify it."

Oliver was pronounced dead at Jackson Memorial Hospital. Family and friends say Oliver had a heart condition related to his years of injesting illegal substances.

Detective Robert Williams of the Miami-Dade Police Department did not confirm whether or not stun guns were used at the scene. "I know you're hearing stories an electronic device was deployed. We do not know if an electronic device was deployed yet. Until we're able to talk to the officers, talk to numerous witnesses here, the medical examiner has his job to do in order to examine the body, then we'll know for certain what was deployed or what was not deployed here."

Oliver had a lengthy criminal record, dating from 1986 to 2000, including drug charges, aggravated battery, and a probation violation for driving with a suspended license. He had a baby on the way and recently graduated from Small Engine Mechanic School.

There will be a candlelight vigil for him Friday night at 8:00 at Walter White Park at 10804 Perry Drive. If you are considering going going to the event, please use caution as the area may be unsafe to most law abiding citizens.

Just curious, I wonder who this newspaper endorsed for POTUS?

[TheKansan]

We don't know all the details of this incident, and the account from family members will always be biased, so it is hard to pass judgement at this point.

[Looker]

"We" will never know all the details of the incident. I'm not passing judgement on anybody at the scene - cops, crook or relative. I'm passing judgement on the newspaper staff for printing this story as "News," and not a column in the editorial. Did you see my comment below the original, unedited post?

[itnstalln]

"We" will never know all the details of the incident. I'm not passing judgement on anybody at the scene - cops, crook or relative. I'm passing judgement on the newspaper staff for printing this story as "News," and not a column in the editorial. Did you see my comment below the original, unedited post?

How is it not "News"? I've removed the quoted witness and officer statements. It seems nothing more than facts and conclusions formed by an eye witness (not the reporters). The witness and officer statements MAY or MAY NOT be correct, but if they were in fact said and reproduced exactly as said then how is an eye witness statement directly quoted not "News" worthy? You may disagree with the individual(s) the reporter chose to interview, but if all officers on the scene say "no comment" then clearly the witnesses/interviewees will be all those remaining. You clearly disagree with the conclusions the eye witness came to based on what he heard and saw, but the reported merely reported those conclusions.

SOUTHWEST MIAMI-DADE (WSVN) -- A South Florida man has died after, witnessed said, police used a Taser on him early Friday morning.

The incident occurred around 3:30 a.m. in the area of Southwest 107th Avenue and 146th Terrace. According to a witness, Kenneth Oliver was under the influence, knocking on people's doors, while screaming for help.

Someone called police to the scene who tried to get the 45-year-old to comply but were unable to. "Quoted Witness Statement" said Paul Severence, a neighbor who witnessed the incident.

According to Severence, police told Oliver to get down and put his hands behind his back. Apparently, Oliver didn't put his hands behind his back quick enough and Severence said he watched police use a Taser three times. "Quoted Witness Statement" said Severence.

Severence said his friend saw police shock Oliver a fourth time.

Edwin Oliver said his brother has pins in his shoulders, which make it too difficult to put his arms behind his back. "Quoted Witness Statement" he explained, "Quoted Witness Statement"

Oliver was pronounced dead at Jackson Memorial Hospital. Family and friends say Oliver had a heart condition and that is probably why he was wandering the streets asking for help.

Detective Robert Williams of the Miami-Dade Police Department did not confirm whether or not stun guns were used at the scene. "Quoted Officer Statement"

Do you take this as guilty until proven innocent?

Oliver has a baby on the way and recently graduated from Small Engine Mechanic School. He also had a lengthy criminal record, dating from 1986 to 2000, including drug charges, aggravated battery, and a probation violation for driving with a suspended license.

There will be a candlelight vigil for him Friday night at 8:00 at Walter White Park at 10804 Perry Drive.

[LT Dangle]

It is not news because we kill people with tasers all the time... DUH!!!

[itnstalln]

It is not news because we kill people with tasers all the time... DUH!!!

The article didn't claim the taser killed the suspect... Maybe the witness or family believes it was the cause, but that is for the ME to determine. A man died, fact. Police allegedly used a taser multiple times prior to the death. If they did in fact use the taser prior the suspects death the two events would be associated but one cannot draw causality simply because of a temporal relationship. DUH!!!

[crazynova]

He most likely didn't die from the taser, he died from the drugs he was on. While the taser has 50,000 volts, it isn't the voltage that kills someone with electricity, it is the amperage, and they don't have near enough amperage to be fatal. I've been told that a taser is like a defribliator - if it doesn't kill you immediately when the shock is going (in that 5 second time period), then you aren't going to die from the taser at all. The media loves to bash LE though, and that will never change.

[crazynova]

How is it not "News"? I've removed the quoted witness and officer statements. It seems nothing more than facts and conclusions formed by an eye witness (not the reporters). The witness and officer statements MAY or MAY NOT be correct, but if they were in fact said and reproduced exactly as said then how is an eye witness statement directly quoted not "News" worthy? You may disagree with the individual(s) the reporter chose to interview, but if all officers on the scene say "no comment" then clearly the witnesses/interviewees will be all those remaining. You clearly disagree with the conclusions the eye witness came to based on what he heard and saw, but the reported merely reported those conclusions.




Do you take this as guilty until proven innocent?

When you use the words "apparantly" followed by an assumption on what was going through one of the parties' minds, then it ceases to become news, and becomes speculation and opinion. If it were simply reporting the news, without bias, it would say something like "A man thought to be under the influence of drugs died today after an altercation with police in which he was tased. The cause of death in still unknown at this time."

[Back to NYC]

Well, with all this new bad pub, guess us guys here in NYC won't be getting tasers after all. It's probably for the best, since everyone seems to think we'd be using them against people we reasonably believe to be armed with guns...so that fewer honor students get shot by the police.

[ChiCity]

In critique of the article itself, the phrases "Oliver has a baby on the way" and "Apparently, Oliver didn't put his hands behind his back quick enough" made me cringe in ways that only a copy-editor could. I'd like to ask the copy editor of this fine news source what he thought about them.

Regardless of the article or even this particular case, I think an interesting point is brought up in this story, at least for me. Electronic impulses are what our brain uses to move our muscles. As everyone here probably knows, getting shocked by electricity causes your muscles, especially those that are directly receiving the shock, to contract, similar to suffering an extreme cramp. It is conceivable to me that receiving a shock directly to your shoulder could make it near impossible to put at least one of your arms behind your back.

Honestly, I've never been tased, nor have I ever used a taser, so my actual knowledge of them is limited. I was reading on another thread that some of the officers on this forum have been tased as part of their training, maybe they could shed some light on my idea.

Anyways, I've never really been sold on the idea of tasers as a law enforcement tool.

[Monty Ealerman]

Once again, somone dies in conjuction with repeated use of an electronic incapacitating device.

Once again, someone trots out the company line that the amperage of the devices is low enough to make them always safe.

Once again, someone points out that a pre-existing medical condition or the use of drugs was a contributing factor.

The devices are not 100% safe. It's almost always better to get hit with one that to get shot with a gun, but they're not "phasers on stun".

Those who point out the disobedience or the drug use are implicitly admitting that the devices can sometimes kill. They just are unsympathetic to drug users and to the disobedient, who are in fact not committing a capital offense in being drug users or being disobedient.

I think the devices have a proper place, but I don't think officers should apply them repeatedly like a TV remote trying to find a channel they like. I think sometimes an officer is going on a power trip with his newfangled device. I think sometimes the officer should keep his electronic incapacitator device on his duty belt and take the guy into custody the old-fashioned way.

I wasn't there, and I don't know whether what the officer did in the situation was right. I can't imagine that the officer wanted the guy to wind up dead, even though it seems the guy wasn't that good of a guy. I'm sorry that there's yet another bad situation related to the use of electronic incapacition devices, which I think probably save many lives.

[djblank87]

So Monty, is it safe to say that you would rather see officers go hands on instead of using a device that can be safer for both parties involved?

[Monty Ealerman]

So Monty, is it safe to say that you would rather see officers go hands on instead of using a device that can be safer for both parties involved?

To me the key words there are "can be". They sometimes are, but not always. It depends on the situation. As I said, I think there's a place for electronic incapacitation devices.

I think you have to balance the risk to the officer against the risk to the offender. I'm willing to work harder and perhaps take a very slight increase in risk to me if by doing so I can strongly reduce the risk to the offender, and the associated risk of my getting vilified on the news and having to go to court over it for years.

For example, if a mentally disturbed guy's 15 feet away brandishing an edged weapon, I'd rather use such a device than drill him with a bullet, or than take the extreme risk of trying to "hands on" disarm and/or incapacitate him. But for some drunk or crackhead flailing about, yeah I'd usually rather go hands on. Sometimes I put latex gloves on first if the guy's filthy.