Impossible evidence on speeding ticket

[Buckwheat469]

Thank you for your replies in advance.

I recently got a ticket while driving up a fairly steep hill. Doing rough calculations it was a 2.5 degree grade for 900 meters (approximately). The road was a 25 mph, and the hill had a slight declination at its peak, where the officer was parked. The hill also curved slightly to the left (while driving up it). The officer had to look down and to the right to see me.

I was clocked at 35mph, which I immediately stopped as soon as I saw him. I pulled over and went through the whole process. I then went home, did some research on the hill and found some errors on the ticket.

First, my driver's license number was misspelled, but my name was spelled correctly. Also, the officer claimed to have tracked me at 35mph for 395ft. As I mentioned above, the hill had a slight decline at the peak, where the officer was parked. I later went to the place where the officer was parked and took pictures and found that he could not track me for more than 100ft. I also went one street further down the hill and looked again and found that he would not be able to see beyond the embankment across the street.

Do you think I would have any argument that the ticket should not be allowed as evidence with inaccurate data on it?

Thank you again.

[Bing_Oh]

The ticket isn't "evidence." It's a summons to appear on a traffic violation. Neither of the issues you've brough up would cause the citation to be automatically dismissed. A typographical error on the citation like the wrong driver's license number isn't grounds for a dismissal (unless you're claming that it wasn't you that received the citation ). As for your mathmatical calculations, you can try to present them in court as a defense. That's up to you.

I notice you never mention if you were actually speeding or not. I can assume something just from that...

[WHC166]

My guess is that the officer didn't "track" you at 395', that's the distance that your speed was checked by LIDAR. It's not easy to beat LIDAR if that's what he/she used.

[Bearcat357]

Thank you for your replies in advance.

I recently got a ticket while driving up a fairly steep hill. Doing rough calculations it was a 2.5 degree grade for 900 meters (approximately). The road was a 25 mph, and the hill had a slight declination at its peak, where the officer was parked. The hill also curved slightly to the left (while driving up it). The officer had to look down and to the right to see me.

I was clocked at 35mph, which I immediately stopped as soon as I saw him. I pulled over and went through the whole process. I then went home, did some research on the hill and found some errors on the ticket.

First, my driver's license number was misspelled, but my name was spelled correctly. Also, the officer claimed to have tracked me at 35mph for 395ft. As I mentioned above, the hill had a slight decline at the peak, where the officer was parked. I later went to the place where the officer was parked and took pictures and found that he could not track me for more than 100ft. I also went one street further down the hill and looked again and found that he would not be able to see beyond the embankment across the street.

Do you think I would have any argument that the ticket should not be allowed as evidence with inaccurate data on it?

Thank you again.

Be a MAN and pay your ticket.....we are not here to help you get out of it......

[Buckwheat469]

Thanks for the replies. @Bearcat, I intend to pay whatever I'm supposed to, I'm not out to escape payment of anything. Yes, I admitted to going 30 at the time I looked at my speedometer, but I can't admit to going 35 because I couldn't verify it and I don't like to make assumptions when it comes to the law. I also know that a typographical mistake is nothing with a last name like mine, but the distance that he reported, which may or may not have been from the radar, is impossible to attain at the location he was sitting. I even downloaded NASA's images on the location and pinpointed where I would have been and verified it in the pictures that I took on location to make sure that he had no way of seeing me until I was practically on top of him. It seems more to me like it's baiting if he's sitting at the top of a hill where he knows everyone (I've witnessed all other people who've driven me the same way) drives above the speed limit. It's not that we intentionally floor it, but it's more a matter that cars have a natural shift point at 25mph when the pedal is depressed the amount it has to be to clear the hill. It's a matter of gravity and inertia, not a complete disregard of the law. It's very similar to police officers who bait cars at the bottom of small hills that have steep grades where they know people will have troubles keeping their speed maintained for the entire time. This practice is reasonable on large hills where a person can adjust for the difference in speed, but relatively small hill are usually too small for a person's reaction to adjust to.

I really wish I can have more evidence on the points that I just made, but it's mostly what I've noticed with the common reaction time of peers, other drivers, and myself. I would love to make a study of the facts, but I would probably get more speeding tickets from cops sitting at the tops and bottoms of hills.

@Bearcat - Be a MAN and offer good advice. I asked an intelligent question wanting an intelligent answer and I got yours. It's rather disappointing that people like you are hanging around a support forum when you should be sitting at the bottom of a hill waiting for the person who can't adjust to the gravitational acceleration quickly enough.

To everyone else. Thank you for the good advice.

[Bing_Oh]

As Vtfuzz mentioned, the officer most likely tracked you with LIDAR (aka, laser), not radar. The reason we assume LIDAR is because there was a notation for distance on the citation. I've never used a radar unit that gave distance to the tracked object (have never even heard of such a unit, in fact). LIDAR, on the other hand, always displays such information, and many LIDAR-certified officers are trained to note that distance on the citation. That distance is how far away you were from the LIDAR unit when your speed was measured, not how long you were tracked.

And, just as Vtfuzz said, LIDAR is very difficult to beat in court. LIDAR is supremely accurate in speed measurement and a person with 10 minutes worth of training can track specific vehicles out of a pack with a LIDAR unit.

[redbird07]

Thanks for the replies. @Bearcat, I intend to pay whatever I'm supposed to, I'm not out to escape payment of anything. Yes, I admitted to going 30 at the time I looked at my speedometer, but I can't admit to going 35 because I couldn't verify it and I don't like to make assumptions when it comes to the law. I also know that a typographical mistake is nothing with a last name like mine, but the distance that he reported, which may or may not have been from the radar, is impossible to attain at the location he was sitting. I even downloaded NASA's images on the location and pinpointed where I would have been and verified it in the pictures that I took on location to make sure that he had no way of seeing me until I was practically on top of him. It seems more to me like it's baiting if he's sitting at the top of a hill where he knows everyone (I've witnessed all other people who've driven me the same way) drives above the speed limit. It's not that we intentionally floor it, but it's more a matter that cars have a natural shift point at 25mph when the pedal is depressed the amount it has to be to clear the hill. It's a matter of gravity and inertia, not a complete disregard of the law. It's very similar to police officers who bait cars at the bottom of small hills that have steep grades where they know people will have troubles keeping their speed maintained for the entire time. This practice is reasonable on large hills where a person can adjust for the difference in speed, but relatively small hill are usually too small for a person's reaction to adjust to.

I really wish I can have more evidence on the points that I just made, but it's mostly what I've noticed with the common reaction time of peers, other drivers, and myself. I would love to make a study of the facts, but I would probably get more speeding tickets from cops sitting at the tops and bottoms of hills.

@Bearcat - Be a MAN and offer good advice. I asked an intelligent question wanting an intelligent answer and I got yours. It's rather disappointing that people like you are hanging around a support forum when you should be sitting at the bottom of a hill waiting for the person who can't adjust to the gravitational acceleration quickly enough.

To everyone else. Thank you for the good advice.

Bearcat. I got your back.

If anyone needs to step up and be a man buckwheat it's you. You have no idea of what youre talking about. Here are several reasons.

No officer "baits" anyone into anything. Hill or no hill, up or down, sideways, if YOU are going over the posted speed limit, YOU are at fault and therefore breaking the law. Cops run LIDAR on hills because there are greater potentials for more serious accidents on them.

And where do you get off on producing all this bull malarkey about physics, google earth, whatever. Over 95% of people I stop for speeding claim they werent speeding. "when I looked down I was only going XX officer". By the time you look down you have already been "clocked" as you say. The officer was not running radar in your situation, he was running Lazer. Additionally, the officer did not "track" you for 395 feet. This number is the distance in feet where the lazer unit locked onto your vehicle and obtained the speed in MPH.

Additionally, this is not a "support center", it's called Ask a Cop. You did and didnt like what you heard. When you recieved your answer you got defensive and took a cheap shot at an officer.

Lastly, You did not ask an intelligent question, you attempted to BS your way on here by spouting off a bunch of so called facts, none of which you have any experience with. We are not going to help you get out of your ticket.

Grow up and pay the ticket.

[Bearcat357]

@Bearcat - Be a MAN and offer good advice. I asked an intelligent question wanting an intelligent answer and I got yours. It's rather disappointing that people like you are hanging around a support forum when you should be sitting at the bottom of a hill waiting for the person who can't adjust to the gravitational acceleration quickly enough.

What...? You think that we are here to get you out of a ticket...?

Get real....pay your ticket....and be done with it.....

[Bearcat357]

Bearcat. I got your back.

Thanks.... some of actually had to work for a change out of the office and couldn't post earlier in the day to this guy.....

[Sgt. Geezer]

Buckwheat ...These guys are just covering for the issuing officer.
It sounds like you've got a good case for dismisal. Go see the judge.

[RobertD]

It sounds like you've got a good case for dismisal. Go see the judge.

I agree, and would only add a couple suggestions.

I would also have the NASA/Google Earth maps blown up to at least 4'x4' in a glossy format to use for a display. Get the copies notarized and make sure that you have several extras so you can get then introduced as evidence into court.

Draw all the cars on it like it was that day for added credibility! Remember that a picture is worth a thousand words. Get many pictures from different angles and you have a whole lecture! Have them all blown up large enough to see from some distance for the Judge.

Then, write detailed instructions for the Judge telling him how, and what calculations he should make to come to the same conclusion you have. Judges are not mathematicians, and often need to be directed what to do in technical issues.

Only other thing you could do to make it an even clearer cut win, is a video presentation. Be sure to also show the view from "one street further down the hill". It will make the officer sweat when he sees how the location of his stop looks from that street. Make sure to keep the whole production down to under 15 minutes.

The court will likely require you to provide your own TV and VCR/DVD player so be sure to bring them all into court with you. A small cart to bring all your materials may be neccessary. Call the courthouse to let them know about it beforehand, just to make sure there are not any security issues.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[gopherpuckfan]

Excellent advice, RobertD!

Good luck, Buckwheat!

[14298a]

The reason your calculations didn't work out is because you are mixing metric system (900m) with English system (25 mph). I think a better argument for you is to tell the judge you forgot you were in the USA and you were reading the Kph scale on your speedometer rather than the Mph scale. I think you will win with this argument.

[trooperden]

and mention that you were traveling 30 mph, just a little over will probably get you off the hook, you are leaving the States when?

[Bearcat357]

I agree, and would only add a couple suggestions.

I would also have the NASA/Google Earth maps blown up to at least 4'x4' in a glossy format to use for a display. Get the copies notarized and make sure that you have several extras so you can get then introduced as evidence into court.

Draw all the cars on it like it was that day for added credibility! Remember that a picture is worth a thousand words. Get many pictures from different angles and you have a whole lecture! Have them all blown up large enough to see from some distance for the Judge.

Then, write detailed instructions for the Judge telling him how, and what calculations he should make to come to the same conclusion you have. Judges are not mathematicians, and often need to be directed what to do in technical issues.

Only other thing you could do to make it an even clearer cut win, is a video presentation. Be sure to also show the view from "one street further down the hill". It will make the officer sweat when he sees how the location of his stop looks from that street. Make sure to keep the whole production down to under 15 minutes.

The court will likely require you to provide your own TV and VCR/DVD player so be sure to bring them all into court with you. A small cart to bring all your materials may be neccessary. Call the courthouse to let them know about it beforehand, just to make sure there are not any security issues.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Sssshhhhhh..... You're giving away all our secrets.....