Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Pennsylvania Radar Requirements

Collapse

300x250 Mobile

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Pennsylvania Radar Requirements

    Hello!

    So I live in Pennsylvania, and frequent the interstates and turnpike for work. Not only are State Troopers the only agency in PA allowed to utilize radar, it seems like we impose some of the most restrictions as to how radar may be utilized. (Such as no moving radar, you must be stationary; unit must be held outside the vehicle; and I believe they are only allowed to “tag” vehicles that are coming towards the radar gun and are not permitted to use radar on a vehicle moving AWAY.)

    My question is this, given all of our restrictions on proper radar use, is it permissible/advisable for them to bounce the radar gun off of their driver side mirror to get vehicles coming up behind them? It just seems like there is such a large margin for error for quite a few reasons. I just watched PSP pull a driver in front of me over that was utilizing this exact tactic and I have a dash cam. I feel like I should be a Good Samaritan and submit this to the local barracks if it’s not allowed to try and get this thrown out?

    I’d appreciate any answers, input, and corrections if I am wrong on anything! Thanks!!

  • #2
    Feel free. Even without radar, courts have ruled the visual speed estimation is sufficient for an officer to cite if he/she has a reasonable amount of training and experience to support the probable cause for the charge.
    "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
    -Friedrich Nietzsche

    Comment


    • #3
      For the above case, see Barberton v. Jenney from the Ohio Supreme Court. They upheld a speeding conviction based on a trainer officers estimation.

      ​​​​​

      Comment


      • #4
        If the trooper was bouncing off his rear view mirror, I would guess he/she was using a lidar, not a radar. And that is a perfectly acceptable practice. The average citizen would likely not know how to differentiate between the two.
        Last edited by ThinBlue404; 06-28-2019, 04:54 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Here you go

          https://www.psp.pa.gov/contact/RTKL%...0%206-%205.pdf
          I don't answer recruitment messages....

          Comment


          • #6
            There is case law that prohibits bouncing radar thru a mirror. Im shocked that PA is so ridiculous about RADAR usage! Please tell me they are not still in the 1950s....
            i was a special police officer working for a security company and using RADAR here in Va back in the 90s before I even became a Deputy.. Anyone can be certified to use it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by varadarcop View Post
              There is case law that prohibits bouncing radar thru a mirror. Im shocked that PA is so ridiculous about RADAR usage! Please tell me they are not still in the 1950s....
              i was a special police officer working for a security company and using RADAR here in Va back in the 90s before I even became a Deputy.. Anyone can be certified to use it.
              You can't "bounce radar" through a mirror.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SnickleBits View Post
                My question is this, given all of our restrictions on proper radar use, is it permissible/advisable for them to bounce the radar gun off of their driver side mirror to get vehicles coming up behind them? It just seems like there is such a large margin for error for quite a few reasons.
                Actually there isn't. Anything that increases the angle from gun to target vehicle reduces the indicated speed of the target vehicle.... in other word's it's to the driver's advantage. Increasing the range has no effect either way, which is what bouncing the radar does.

                I just watched PSP pull a driver in front of me over that was utilizing this exact tactic and I have a dash cam. I feel like I should be a Good Samaritan and submit this to the local barracks if it’s not allowed to try and get this thrown out?
                Knock yourself out. There is a lot of misunderstanding about radar... the biggest one is that you're stopped because of what the radar says.

                You're stopped because the officer estimated your speed as over the limit. The radar just confirms it.

                The way radar operators are trained: they look for a suspected speeding vehicle, they activate the radar, they confirm the vehicle is speeding.

                You can make traffic stops and even issue citations, without radar at all, just by visual estimation.

                In fact, to pass my radar class, we had to make 20 speed estimations on moving vehicles out on the road with an instructor. We had to be within 5mph of the radar's indicated speed. If I can do that, do I really NEED radar?

                Originally posted by orlandofed5-0 View Post
                ...all that's required is an open window. No mention of not bouncing it off a mirror.

                ...and most of those limitations are to reduce citizen complaints based in ignorance. Few of those factors will actually impact the accuracy of the radar.
                Last edited by tanksoldier; 06-30-2019, 05:23 PM.
                "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

                "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

                Comment


                • #9
                  Just an update. Municipal police using radar was passed by the state Senate and will be passed most likely by the state house of representatives. The governor will most likely sign it.
                  I don't answer recruitment messages....

                  Comment


                  • PA_Ed
                    PA_Ed commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Redacted - commented below
                    Last edited by PA_Ed; 07-01-2019, 02:50 PM.

                • #10
                  Originally posted by SnickleBits View Post
                  Hello!

                  So I live in Pennsylvania, and frequent the interstates and turnpike for work. Not only are State Troopers the only agency in PA allowed to utilize radar, it seems like we impose some of the most restrictions as to how radar may be utilized. (Such as no moving radar, you must be stationary; unit must be held outside the vehicle; and I believe they are only allowed to “tag” vehicles that are coming towards the radar gun and are not permitted to use radar on a vehicle moving AWAY.)

                  My question is this, given all of our restrictions on proper radar use, is it permissible/advisable for them to bounce the radar gun off of their driver side mirror to get vehicles coming up behind them? It just seems like there is such a large margin for error for quite a few reasons. I just watched PSP pull a driver in front of me over that was utilizing this exact tactic and I have a dash cam. I feel like I should be a Good Samaritan and submit this to the local barracks if it’s not allowed to try and get this thrown out?

                  I’d appreciate any answers, input, and corrections if I am wrong on anything! Thanks!!
                  That's not how it works! A mirror is just a piece of glass. It's not going to reflect any radio signal.



                  Comment


                  • #11
                    https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2019...ed-radar-vote/

                    Exciting news - On Tuesday 6/25, PA State Senators voted 49 to 1 in favor of the bill. Now the bill is on its way to the House for approval.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by SnickleBits View Post
                      Hello!

                      My question is this, given all of our restrictions on proper radar use, is it permissible/advisable for them to bounce the radar gun off of their driver side mirror to get vehicles coming up behind them? It just seems like there is such a large margin for error for quite a few reasons. I just watched PSP pull a driver in front of me over that was utilizing this exact tactic and I have a dash cam. I feel like I should be a Good Samaritan and submit this to the local barracks if it’s not allowed to try and get this thrown out?
                      I was a RADAR instructor for most of my thirty years in law enforcement and attended 3 different training classes on the use of stationary and moving RADAR. It is acceptable to bounce the radio beam energy off your sideview mirror to clock a target coming up behind you. The big factor is making sure there is not a lot of traffic because you could be getting a reflection off a target you cannot immediately see in your mirror and the violator might slam on his brakes before you do get a visual on him. Should that be the case, the officer ignores that incident because his visual observation and the RADAR's reading doesn't match.

                      While I did utilize that practice, I found the real trick was to keep the angle within tolerance so the correct speed is indicated. RADAR is correct if the target's path is coming directly toward or away...........or within a ten degree angle........ from the center of the RADAR beam. Anything over that ten degree angle, (called the cosine error), makes the target appear to be going slower than it really is. But, as Tanksoldier said, the biggest part of the case is the visual observation the officer makes and simply uses the RADAR readout to confirm that observation.

                      From the way you describe the situation that day, I can see nothing the officer did wrong. He obviously formed an opinion on the vehicle's speed, got a consistent reading from his unit and issued the ticket. Done deal...........
                      If your biggest work-related fear is getting a paper cut, don't try and tell a cop how to do his job.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by westside popo View Post
                        That's not how it works! A mirror is just a piece of glass. It's not going to reflect any radio signal.
                        It actually does work.
                        "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

                        "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by westside popo View Post

                          That's not how it works! A mirror is just a piece of glass. It's not going to reflect any radio signal.


                          I used to shoot radar out of my outside rear view mirror back when we used radar, and it worked just fine.

                          Now that we have laser, I do it with the laser too.

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            I lived in PA back during the 1980s and I always remember that state troopers were the only ones who could use radar AND they had to use it in the 'stationary' mode. That meant two things, though. First, they got very creative in choosing places to hide (bushes, overpasses, behind bridge abutments, construction equipment, etc.). Second, the local/municipal police used VASCAR and other "non-transmitting" devices to measure speed -- and plenty of folks realized that a radar detector was useless up there.

                            It is going to be interesting to see how long it will be (in 2020?) before local agencies hand out radar guns to their officers. Knowing a lot of the small towns up there, I cannot help but think that speed enforcement will quickly become a cash cow for more than a few of them.

                            Stay safe out there, folks!

                            The comments above reflect my personal opinion as a private citizen, ordinary motorist and all-around good guy.

                            The aforementioned advice should not be construed to represent any type of professional opinion, legal counsel or other type of instruction with regard to traffic laws, judicial proceedings or official agency policy.

                            ------------------------------------------------

                            "Ignorance on fire is hotter than knowledge on ice."

                            Comment

                            MR300x250 Tablet

                            Collapse

                            What's Going On

                            Collapse

                            There are currently 14403 users online. 279 members and 14124 guests.

                            Most users ever online was 26,947 at 08:36 PM on 12-29-2019.

                            Welcome Ad

                            Collapse
                            Working...
                            X