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Different situation - talking to chief

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  • Different situation - talking to chief

    Last year I was terminated from my department (at will) for a violation of policy and was given a dishonorable discharge for insubordination. I had the backing of supervisors and felt that I did no wrong, however my appeal to city manager landed on deaf ears. After leaving there I picked up a gig as a bailiff with my local department.

    I applied with said department (civil service), for a patrol position earlier this year and passed both written and physical. I had arbitration for my contested dishonorable discharge in July, and it was overturned and I was given an honorable discharge - terminated at will. I called my background investigator the same day and within an hour received a DQ email from personnel. This letter gave me a 3 year DQ, and did not state a reason. I have a perfect background, good credit, never had a ticket or any negative contact with law enforcement and have been in LE since I was 19, now 26.

    My only thought is that this termination was recent and because of the nature, insubordination, it is highly unfavorable.

    Long story short, I have an interview with the chief on friday morning to discuss a waiver for my DQ. Is there anything that should be said or brought up besides the obvious "I was cleared by an administrative judge and given an honorable discharge"?
    And maybe remind the few, if ill of us they speak. That we are all that stands, between the monsters and the weak.

  • #2
    Insubordination is one of those things that is hard to overlook. We understand there is going to be some personality conflicts and will look at the situation leading up to it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Two things. First, you are dealing with an area many applicants have difficulty understanding. The fact that you won your arbitration is somewhat meaningless. What counts is what you actually did (or didn't do) that resulted in the termination By way of example, years back I did a background on someone accused of rape. He was acquitted at trial, but only on a technicality. That didn't change the fact that he actually committed the rape and he was DQed on his background. Take a step back and look at your incident from a management point of view. In their eyes was it reasonable to believe you engaged in misconduct? If so, that's how the new Chief may see it as well.

      Next, when dealing witrh the Chief;s interview - do not cop any type of a defensive attitude. Be as clinical and matter of fact as you can when you talk about the incident, but at the same time be sincere and open to being wrong or to take advise. Chief, I saw A, B, C & D. In response I did E, F, G & H. I thought I was doing the right thing, my supervisors backed me up, and yet I got fired for it. I won at arbitration and I still think I did right, but if there's something I'm missing or something I could have done better to avoid this I'd sure like to know what it was.


      Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

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      • #4
        I was involved in a pursuit and was the second unit. My corporal ordered me out of the pursuit and took my spot as the second unit. A short time later I asked my sergeant, who was lead in the pursuit, if he wanted me to attempt to intercept the pursuit near the highway and deploy spikes. He verbally acknowledged and I began to head that way. The pursuit got to the highway before I was able to cut it off. The pursuit left the city and I and another officer were asked to attempt to intercept the pursuit once more after the pursuit had left the city and was headed towards a different highway intersection.

        This was all included in my report and was approved by complete chain of command. Approximately 1 month later, I was informed my pursuit was being reviewed because "concerns had arisen". I was cited for failing to terminate my involvement in the pursuit and insubordination, and then subsequently fired.

        Edit: To summarize, I received conflicting orders from supervisors during the pursuit. The judge who oversaw arbitration agreed that there was "not sufficient evidence to support that I had engaged in any misconduct" (taken from Order to licensing agency), and my termination report should reflect I was terminated Honorably - at will.
        Last edited by Sandie23; 10-29-2018, 03:25 PM.
        And maybe remind the few, if ill of us they speak. That we are all that stands, between the monsters and the weak.

        Comment


        • #5
          Then lay it out that way. This is what happened, this is what I did. I'm still not sure what I did wrong, but here I am.
          Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

          Comment


          • #6
            I appreciate the responses. Just trying to figure out what to do and what to say. My career rides on this
            And maybe remind the few, if ill of us they speak. That we are all that stands, between the monsters and the weak.

            Comment


            • #7
              Again, just tell it like you did in your last post - concise, to the point and without emotion. Then let the Chief ask his clarifying questions. It's that simple.

              If you've made it this far, he's already heard "their side." Now he wants to hear yours. All you can do is tell the truth.
              Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

              Comment


              • #8
                Is there more to the story? In all frankness, that justification for termination seems rather weak.

                That it took a month also raises flags. Why did it take so long for this to develop into an issue? Were there additional previous incidents, similar in nature??

                What is the history with your sergeant?

                And why would the city manager fire you if you had the backing of your supervisors??

                Not judging, just trying to get a better sense of the totality of the situation. Reason why is I've seen 'insubordination' used as the basis for constructive dismissals before (i.e.- the powers were waiting for an excuse to terminate...).
                I used to be a banker but I lost interest.

                -Steven Wright

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                • #9
                  Yep. Much more to the tale... There always is.
                  Now go home and get your shine box!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Were you a hump they were waiting on a reason to get rid of you? Or there is more like you work at very small department where that corporal is the cousin of the chief or city manger and you hurt his ego.
                    Where'd you learn that, Cheech? Drug school?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Or perhaps maybe you were ROAD and didn't do much policing until that event? Totality of circumstances.
                      Former Police Officer (Injured LOD)
                      USAF VETERAN 2004-2012
                      "The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day."-LTC Grossman
                      Emergency Services Dispatcher, APG MD

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Certainty see where the insubordination came In at. Willing to bet you and the corporal have butted heads before and there's more to this.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The captain and I had had issues in the past, he and my dad were in the same academy some 17 years ago and my dad got him kicked out. Had no discipline in the year leading up to this and had just spoke to my LT about how much improvement I had made and was getting ready to go to FTO school. Both my cpl and sgt approved the report and my involvement. Sgt signed off on the pursuit paperwork. Everything approved by CID.

                          Im not really looking for justification as to why I was terminated. That happened, it’s over and done with. I’m confident in the fact that I did nothing wrong with my involvement in the pursuit.

                          My question is, I’m asking for a waiver from the chief for my 3 year disqualification from the department. What I’m struggling with is figuring out how to word things to help him understand that I take responsibility for what happenedamd that it was an isolated incident. I need to show him that I’ve grown in the last year, and that while working “for” the department as a bailiff, I have had no discipline issues and have the full confidence of quite a few officers and department staff. Basically begging for a chance, without actually begging.
                          And maybe remind the few, if ill of us they speak. That we are all that stands, between the monsters and the weak.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            There's really no advice that can be given if you're not in a sound, defensible position to argue your case.

                            Even if you aren't actually begging, your body language and voice will likely convey desperation. The "right" words will matter not.

                            You can give it a shot and hope for divine intervention, I suppose. Or you can come to terms with the reality that you've been DQ'ed, and move on, chin high.


                            FWIW, you're 26. It might not seem like you have options right now but you do. I've known many many people who saw their LE careers end early and moved on to successful endeavors. One went into construction and now owns his own company. One went into sales and did really well and lives in a San Diego mansion. One became an attorney. I could go on but the bigger point is maybe it's your perspective that needs honing, not your words.
                            I used to be a banker but I lost interest.

                            -Steven Wright

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ratatatat View Post
                              There's really no advice that can be given if you're not in a sound, defensible position to argue your case.

                              Even if you aren't actually begging, your body language and voice will likely convey desperation. The "right" words will matter not.

                              You can give it a shot and hope for divine intervention, I suppose. Or you can come to terms with the reality that you've been DQ'ed, and move on, chin high.


                              FWIW, you're 26. It might not seem like you have options right now but you do. I've known many many people who saw their LE careers end early and moved on to successful endeavors. One went into construction and now owns his own company. One went into sales and did really well and lives in a San Diego mansion. One became an attorney. I could go on but the bigger point is maybe it's your perspective that needs honing, not your words.
                              A lot of good advice here
                              Since some people need to be told by notes in crayon .......Don't PM me with without prior permission. If you can't discuss the situation in the open forum ----it must not be that important

                              My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

                              Comment

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