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  • References?

    When going through the hiring process is it ever a good idea to include letters of recommendation? Or does it just make you seem like a brown noser? or is it a wonderful idea?or what?All responses are greatly appreciated.

  • #2
    The application will have a space for references... use that. Don't over think the hiring process, or you'll get a DQ for failing to follow simple instruction.

    -SC
    Education ... has produced a vast population able to read but unable to distinguish what is worth reading.
    - G. M. Trevelyan

    B.S. Business Administration - Texas A&M 1990
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    • #3
      If we want them, we'll ask for them (and we won't be asking for them). If you make it far enough in the process, we are going to speak to the people that would be writing the letters anyway. Just list them as references in the appropriate section.

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      • #4
        Like Sleepy Cop said: Keep it simple and only give them what they ask for. Just like when your in court; only divulge what is asked or you will wind up in trouble.

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        • #5
          Can someone explain why you feel this way?

          My experience with applications I have always included letters of reference from people not listed in the application as well as references that are hard to get a hold of (ex: my old boss spends 6 months a year in Sweden for work) and make sure they include other ways to contact them, most the apps have room for 1 phone number and address.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by FLPDwannabe View Post
            Can someone explain why you feel this way?

            My experience with applications I have always included letters of reference from people not listed in the application as well as references that are hard to get a hold of (ex: my old boss spends 6 months a year in Sweden for work) and make sure they include other ways to contact them, most the apps have room for 1 phone number and address.
            If they want someone to talk to then they will find that person. If they wanted reference letters then they would ask for them.

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            • #7
              Letters of Reference Are Worthless

              Originally posted by FLPDwannabe View Post
              Can someone explain why you feel this way?

              My experience with applications I have always included letters of reference from people not listed in the application as well as references that are hard to get a hold of (ex: my old boss spends 6 months a year in Sweden for work) and make sure they include other ways to contact them, most the apps have room for 1 phone number and address.
              Most people want to give letters of reference at the oral board to enhance their score. But the oral board is supposed to score you based on your answers to the questions they ask you and not some stranger's opinion of
              you. If they accept and score your letters, they will be judging you by a completely different standard than all the other applicants. This is called disparate treatment and is contrary to the civil service process, where everyone is judged according to the same yardstick.

              When it comes to the background, there are specific questions the BI wants answered. Odds are, that information is not going to be in your letter of reference. Even then, no one in their right mind is going to list a reference they know will bad mouth them. So most BIs disregard what the reference says and instead asks the reference for contact information on other people who know the applicant. It's what those secondary people say that counts. Contact information on those secondary people is not likely to be found in letters of reference.
              Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

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              • #8
                L-1 Thank you for the reply, does it matter that the letters are turned in with the applications well before the oral board?

                Most the letters are basically what the people would say on the phone as well as contact information for other supervisors and co-workers. As I said the biggest reason I ask is a lot of my refrences from work spend a lot of time out of the country so getting a hold of them isn't always as easy as it seems.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by FLPDwannabe View Post
                  L-1 Thank you for the reply, does it matter that the letters are turned in with the applications well before the oral board?

                  Most the letters are basically what the people would say on the phone as well as contact information for other supervisors and co-workers. As I said the biggest reason I ask is a lot of my refrences from work spend a lot of time out of the country so getting a hold of them isn't always as easy as it seems.
                  QUOTE=FLPDwannabe;2111440]L-1 Thank you for the reply, does it matter Don't turn in letters of reference unless specifically that the letters are turned in with the applications well before the oral board?

                  Most the letters are basically what the people would say on the phone as well as contact information for other supervisors and co-workers. As I said the biggest reason I ask is a lot of my refrences from work spend a lot of time out of the country so getting a hold of them isn't always as easy as it seems.[/QUOTE]

                  Don't turn in letters of reference unless specifically asked for them (which is rare).

                  Did you even read my post? Especially the header that said Letters of Reference Are Worthless?

                  The purpose of your application is merely to establish that you possess the minimum requirements necessary for admission to the testing process. Letters of reference have nothing to do with that.

                  The oral panel is going to score you based on the number of correct answers you give to their questions and not on what some stranger has written on a piece of paper.

                  While you claim the letters are basically what the people would say on the phone to your BI as well as contact information for other supervisors and co-workers, you have no idea what a background investigator would ask. Your efforts strongly suggest you do not want your BI to talk to a real, verifiable person. This creates the suspicion that your letters of reference may be fraudulent.

                  What is clear from all this is that you are attempting to manipulate the system. You are trying to define how the hiring agency will score its applicants and how it will conduct its background investigations, The big problem here is that you are applying for a bottom level position where you are expected to be a follower for many years, but clearly you want to be in charge even before you are hired. Law enforcement is a profession that needs team players. Let me suggest that this may not be the profession for you.
                  Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by L-1 View Post
                    QUOTE=FLPDwannabe;2111440]L-1 Thank you for the reply, does it matter Don't turn in letters of reference unless specifically that the letters are turned in with the applications well before the oral board?

                    Most the letters are basically what the people would say on the phone as well as contact information for other supervisors and co-workers. As I said the biggest reason I ask is a lot of my refrences from work spend a lot of time out of the country so getting a hold of them isn't always as easy as it seems.
                    Don't turn in letters of reference unless specifically asked for them (which is rare).

                    Did you even read my post? Especially the header that said Letters of Reference Are Worthless?

                    The purpose of your application is merely to establish that you possess the minimum requirements necessary for admission to the testing process. Letters of reference have nothing to do with that.

                    The oral panel is going to score you based on the number of correct answers you give to their questions and not on what some stranger has written on a piece of paper.

                    While you claim the letters are basically what the people would say on the phone to your BI as well as contact information for other supervisors and co-workers, you have no idea what a background investigator would ask. Your efforts strongly suggest you do not want your BI to talk to a real, verifiable person. This creates the suspicion that your letters of reference may be fraudulent.

                    What is clear from all this is that you are attempting to manipulate the system. You are trying to define how the hiring agency will score its applicants and how it will conduct its background investigations, The big problem here is that you are applying for a bottom level position where you are expected to be a follower for many years, but clearly you want to be in charge even before you are hired. Law enforcement is a profession that needs team players. Let me suggest that this may not be the profession for you.[/QUOTE]


                    The biggest issues brought up in the letters is alternative contacts in case my direct supervisor is unavailable. So far 3 recruiters have asked for and accepted them. Those are also the 3 department I'm high on the list for if the ever get rid of their hiring freezes.
                    All those apps said to include any additional items of importance and where turned in to recruiters personally, I was trying to get an idea how to treat similar apps with the difference of them being mailed in so I can't ask the recruiter face to face. Over the phone their only answers were for me to use my better judgment.

                    So please try to understand some places like here run different and actually liked having way to get a hold of bosses who travel internationally or other supervisors they can contact. So far the people I've sat down face to face with feel that sometime 1 small box is not big enough to get all the info in, international numbers don't even fit in the space provided and neither do 3 supervisors names and date they're at which number or in which country.
                    Last edited by FLPDwannabe; 12-15-2009, 03:43 PM. Reason: spelling

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by just joe View Post
                      If we want them, we'll ask for them (and we won't be asking for them).
                      Originally posted by mikeymedic View Post
                      Like Sleepy Cop said: Keep it simple and only give them what they ask for. Just like when your in court; only divulge what is asked or you will wind up in trouble.
                      Originally posted by mikeymedic View Post
                      If they want someone to talk to then they will find that person. If they wanted reference letters then they would ask for them.
                      Originally posted by L-1 View Post

                      Don't turn in letters of reference unless specifically asked for them (which is rare).
                      Originally posted by FLPDwannabe View Post

                      So far 3 recruites have asked for and accepted them.
                      It's like having an argument with a wall.

                      If those 3 recruiters asked for them, then they wanted reference letters. I think what L-1 et al. are too polite to say is that you are clearly incapable of following simple instructions on a piece of paper.

                      As for your concerns about the difficulty of contacting your glowing references, if your BI detective has trouble s/he will ask you for further contact information. That information does not need to be accompanied by a wholly subjective evaluation of you as a person in a context that has no bearing on law enforcement.

                      But, because you are clearly not going to absorb this, go ahead and send reference letters with all of your applications. The BI will also give you bonus points if you make sure to dot all of your "I"s with hearts and use smiley faces for periods.

                      There... someone said what you wanted them to say. Are you happy now?
                      Last edited by DetDep; 12-14-2009, 05:04 PM. Reason: Grammar Rodeo Head Buckaroo
                      Magistrate: "Do you have any other pending charges?"
                      Drunk: "Well there's this thing where the cops said I spit blood on them."
                      Me: "Wait a minute, that was me!"
                      Drunk: "Oh... now you like me even less."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        DQ

                        1. Unable to follow simple written and verbal instructions.
                        2. Unwilling to conform to departmental policies.
                        3. Insists on substituting own personal philosophies for departmental procedures.
                        4. Unable to work cooperatively with others.
                        5. Lacks good judgment.
                        Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by L-1 View Post
                          DQ

                          1. Unable to follow simple written and verbal instructions.
                          2. Unwilling to conform to departmental policies.
                          3. Insists on substituting own personal philosophies for departmental procedures.
                          4. Unable to work cooperatively with others.
                          5. Lacks good judgment.

                          Point taken. I understand the judging on here but please take it with a grain of salt that I'm asking here before I go messing up the applications that are getting submitted by mail and that this is a new thing for me. Corporate the letters always went and I was almost always hired until recently. One of the corporate rejections was due to being unable to reach my current boss. They only called and left a message on the office phone and refused contact with the business partners.

                          Guess keep faith if they need another contact they'll ask me.

                          BTW. Thank you for explaining how it would be viewed if I just sent them with out an answer ahead of time.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by L-1 View Post
                            DQ

                            1. Unable to follow simple written and verbal instructions.
                            2. Unwilling to conform to departmental policies.
                            3. Insists on substituting own personal philosophies for departmental procedures.
                            4. Unable to work cooperatively with others.
                            5. Lacks good judgment.

                            Point taken. I understand the judging on here but please take it with a grain of salt that I'm asking here before I go messing up the applications that are getting submitted by mail and that this is a new thing for me. Corporate the letters always went and I was almost always hired until recently. One of the corporate rejections was due to being unable to reach my current boss. They only called and left a message on the office phone and refused contact with the business partners.

                            Guess keep faith if they need another contact they'll ask me.

                            DetDep: Maybe the way I'm asking and explaining is coming off arguementative but it is not intended to be that way, probably caused by lack of sleep and to much going on during the day right now so sorry about coming off that way.


                            BTW. Thank you for explaining how it would be viewed if I just sent them with out an answer ahead of time.
                            Last edited by FLPDwannabe; 12-15-2009, 04:13 PM.

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                            • #15
                              U FAIL.

                              Your name has been submitted to epicfail.com

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