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  • Best perssonel protection ammo?

    I have a Glock 19 (9mm) and I was wondering what is the best hollow point ammunition out there for personnel protection, excluding the Winchester Ranger (black talon). I have looked into them and from speaking with LEO friends of mine I was told since it is a LE round only if you end up shooting someone with that round and it kills them you may be more liable. What I mean by liable is that you get some lawyer saying if you would have been using a normal round the guy might not have died. Even if it was a good shoot. The classic overkill. That makes sense to me so I think I will stay away from it. Any thoughts on that are welcome.
    "Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

    People who love sausage and people who believe in justice should never watch either of them being made. ~Otto Bismarck

    "Don't put yourself in a position to investigate yourself" ~CommonSense

    "Now, what is the rule?" "Protect myself at all times."

    sigpic

  • #2
    CommonGoal:

    That argument is flawed and illogical. By extension, if shooting them with some bullets increases their chance of dying as compared to shooting them with "less dangerous" bullets then the ACLU can select what ammo cops can carry to increase survival chances of the shootees, right?

    Winchester Ranger SXT is good ammo. Federal Hydra-Shok, Speer Gold Dot.. they're all good. What's important is to select ammo that:
    1) functions reliably in your weapon;
    2) you're confident will stop the threat;
    3) you can afford to practice with.

    Just my $0.02's worth and maybe not worth that.

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    • #3
      I really cant say. I am only allowed to use dept issued ammo (hollow point hydra shock) in my off duty weapon. Nothing else is an option.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by frankborelli View Post
        CommonGoal:

        That argument is flawed and illogical. By extension, if shooting them with some bullets increases their chance of dying as compared to shooting them with "less dangerous" bullets then the ACLU can select what ammo cops can carry to increase survival chances of the shootees, right?

        Winchester Ranger SXT is good ammo. Federal Hydra-Shok, Speer Gold Dot.. they're all good. What's important is to select ammo that:
        1) functions reliably in your weapon;
        2) you're confident will stop the threat;
        3) you can afford to practice with.

        Just my $0.02's worth and maybe not worth that.



        Slightly more than a decade ago Winchester developed the Black Talon series of ammo. After several high profile shootings there was a public outcry about the horrific wounds that Black Talons inflicted. Liberals from Alaska to Washington shrieked that they should be outlawed for civilians and there was talk that even congress might pass laws stopping their sale. Winchester wishing to avert a public relations disaster quickly announced that Black Talon ammunition was being discontinued. In a few months, a box of the stuff, if you could find it sold for $75.00 - $100.00. Behind the scenes Winchester continued the development of the Black Talon SXT (Supreme Expansion Technology), but decided to make it Law Enforcement Only Ammo, hence the Ranger SXT was born. Early Ranger Ammo even had the distinctive evil black bullets like original Talons. The bullets were black because of a coating of proprietary **Winchester** bullet lubricant called "lubox" which happened to be black. The Demonic blackness is now gone because of liberal howling and you can now only get copper colored Rangers. Current Rangers have greater performance and stopping power that the original Talons and are now available again to civilians. This is some of the most extensively tested ammo ever developed. Winchester actively tries to keep Rangers only in the hands of Law Enforcement and out of the hands of civilian shooters. There is no guarantee that Rangers will be available in the future and since history repeats itself, there is every reason to predict they will not.

        The stuff is bad, I am Joe civilian with a CCW permit not a cop. If I were to shoot someone it would be to stop the threat not to intentionally kill (arguably). If I am using ammunition like this and the individual I shoot dies because of this ammo (hypothetically) then it is plausible that there could be a case for overkill or whatever you want to call it. I am not talking about an Officer using the ammo, I believe you would be covered if the stuff is issued by the Dept. You personally do not decide to use the stuff its just what your Dept. uses. In this day and age with all the sue happy lawyers this scenario could happen, come on we sue people because our coffee is too hot.
        "Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

        People who love sausage and people who believe in justice should never watch either of them being made. ~Otto Bismarck

        "Don't put yourself in a position to investigate yourself" ~CommonSense

        "Now, what is the rule?" "Protect myself at all times."

        sigpic

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        • #5
          Hydrashock here, too. .40cal
          The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed.

          I Am the Sheepdog.


          "And maybe just remind the few, if ill of us they speak,
          that we are all that stands between
          the monsters and the weak." - Michael Marks


          sigpic

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          • #6
            Ummm.....just FYI...If you shoot someone with or without LE ammo you would still be liable just like us.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by sprinks View Post
              Ummm.....just FYI...If you shoot someone with or without LE ammo you would still be liable just like us.
              The argument was being more liable with the type of ammo you choose. I am well aware of the liability in shooting someone if the need arises.
              "Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

              People who love sausage and people who believe in justice should never watch either of them being made. ~Otto Bismarck

              "Don't put yourself in a position to investigate yourself" ~CommonSense

              "Now, what is the rule?" "Protect myself at all times."

              sigpic

              Comment


              • #8
                Being more liable isn't exactly correct, you are either liable or you aren't, but it is something an opposing attorney could latch onto. I don't know how succesful an argument it would be, and I've heard the same arguments against using handloads for self-defense. A large part of this may rest on the legal environment you find yourself in, but I digress.

                Federal Hydra-shock is used by a lot of agencies and when I was still making my own ammo choices that's what I used. Speer Gold Dot also has a pretty good rep. Frankly in this day and age all of your brand name hollow points are going to be quality rounds and I wouldn't sweat it too much.
                I miss you, Dave.
                http://www.odmp.org/officer/20669-of...david-s.-moore

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                • #9
                  personal protection....not personnel
                  I'm 10-8 like a shark in a sea of crime..

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                  • #10
                    This thread is laughable in a way. I mean, not for nothin', but a great and devastating round against flesh, is the full wadcutter, if truth be known.

                    So is a semi-jacketed hollow point, semi-wadcutter or hyrdrashock.

                    If it goes bang and rips through flesh, it's a stopper - no matter what. The only iffy round is the anemic military ball 9mm; but even that will destro vital organs.

                    I carry 38+P Hyrdashocks in my Colt Cobra. But all of it is good.

                    And as others have said, there is no such thing as "less lethal" ammo.

                    Puh-LEEEZE!
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                    • #11
                      JHP ammo by any of the major makers will work just fine. Buy a box and make sure it functions in your handgun. Then spend more money on training and practice (you do NOT need to practice with the high dollar ammo.) Shot placement is far, far more important than what kind of round you hit with.

                      As for ammo being an issue, it is not. If it is a justified shoot, the type of ammo does not matter. If it is not justified, you go to prison even if you used the same ammo as your local PD. I have testified as an expert witness in use of force, and in real courtrooms, what kind of ammo is not the issue.
                      Last edited by Sleuth; 01-21-2008, 12:04 PM.
                      "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
                      John Stuart Mill

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sleuth View Post
                        As for ammo being an issue, it is not. If it is a justified shoot, the type of ammo does not matter. If it is not justified, you go to prison even if you used the same ammo as your local PD. I have testified as an expert witness in use of force, and in real courtrooms, what kind of ammo is not the issue.
                        Ok to make sure Im understanding you correctly are you saying the ammo doesnt matter as an officer off duty or as a civillian with your personal weapon?

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                        • #13
                          Winchester Ranger SXT...on duty and off
                          Perseverate In Pugna

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                          • #14
                            Look into Cor-Bon 125 grain hollow point.

                            This company makes hot ammo for self defense.

                            That is what I would use, if I carried a 9mm.

                            I have shot it out of my 92FS, functioned and was accurate as well.

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                            • #15
                              Federal Tactical .40
                              Invisible cows control my mind.

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