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  • #76
    Originally posted by CityCopDC View Post
    I just love how "the officers" who criticize me for going a bit beyond the scope are the same ones who think that because someone has a legal gun permit or a valid drivers license, that person means you no harm. Or my favorite, "your treating them like criminals" . (I apologize, I tend not to take everyones word at face value, especially when they say they are armed... )
    Here's your problem. You think we are somehow "against" you because we posted our opinions. What put you on the defensive there Brother? We are not picking on you, criticizing you, or disparaging you for your actions. I said in my original post that, if one of our officers treated someone as a felon because of a CCW, they would be sued or fired. That is how it is HERE. Where people have a legal right to be armed. OUR PA Constitution reads: "Right to Bear Arms
    Section 21: The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."

    When I took the oath, years ago, I swore to protect and defend, not only the US Constitution, but the State one as well. The citizens WE protect and serve here, in PA have rights, like the one above. As was posted by another brother, we ASSUME everyone is armed. It's easier that way, and sometimes we ain't disappointed. As he also said, for us, it's the person that does NOT tell you he's armed that we USUALLY have to worry about more. Your situation was unique, and as a matter of fact, I've never heard a similar one in 17+ years.

    We are not saying or implying you are wrong in doing things the way you do them where you work. This is, after all, a discussion forum. We don't do it that way here, and we gave reasons why we don't. None of us said you are wrong for handling your stops in the way you do. I can't speak for DC and how things work there. I work here. Everyone does the job different, in different places.

    To make a point on something you keep saying... You say that it was a law abiding citizen that you had your encounter with. You then say there were warrants for him. Doesn't sound all that "law abiding" to me so far. Something for you to consider. Every criminal starts out "law abiding". Once that guy decided he was going to go for his pistol (which indicates to me, and every other reasonable cop here) he became not so law abiding. Where we work, the vast majority of people we meet on a daily basis are law abiding people. Traffic stops don't of themselves make someone non-law abiding. The determination to (apparently) try to commit murder to avoid arrest on traffic warrants indicates to me that the fellow you ran into was vastly not "law abiding". It's a pretty big jump for a law abiding citizen to go for a pistol during a traffic stop.
    As far as "rights" are concerned; I look at them this way... I don't tell you what church to go to, and you don't tell me what kind of firearm I can own...

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by grog18b View Post
      Here's your problem. You think we are somehow "against" you because we posted our opinions. What put you on the defensive there Brother?
      What put me on the defensive? I have "officers" from areas OTHER THAN the DC/Balt Metro Area telling ME how things work where they are. I have no problems with that and always love constructive criticism. I have done "ride alongs" with Bmore pd and came across a unique situation where a BUSINESS OWNER advised the Balt. Officer that he had a legal permit and a weapon on his person. You know what happened? That Officer asked where the weapon was, asked the gentleman to step out of the car with his hands in the air, he placed the gentleman in cuffs, advised he was not under arrest, retrieved the weapon OFF OF the gentleman, secured it and took the cuffs off of the gentleman. The officer checked his Maryland permit was valid, ran the gentlemans tags and drivers license and guess what? He was on his way with his weapon back in custody and a slight delay. The citizen prior to leaving advised that while he was confused at first as to why he was being placed in cuffs, he now understands in this day and age why the officer did what he did. Now whether its legal for a Maryland permit holder to carry in Balt, I have no idea...

      Originally posted by grog18b View Post
      We are not picking on you, criticizing you, or disparaging you for your actions. I said in my original post that, if one of our officers treated someone as a felon because of a CCW, they would be sued or fired.
      If placing someone in cuffs equates to felon, then all arrests where you place cuffs on someone are felony arrests?

      Originally posted by grog18b View Post
      That is how it is HERE. Where people have a legal right to be armed. OUR PA Constitution reads: "Right to Bear Arms
      Section 21: The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."
      And Im telling you how it is HERE. Not in PA, HERE in the Wash/Balt Metro Area.... The citizens are not TREATED as felons, thats what YOU equate it to...

      Originally posted by grog18b View Post
      When I took the oath, years ago, I swore to protect and defend, not only the US Constitution, but the State one as well. The citizens WE protect and serve here, in PA have rights, like the one above. As was posted by another brother, we ASSUME everyone is armed. It's easier that way, and sometimes we ain't disappointed.
      I would like to think that every officer that takes a sworn oath in their particular jurisdiction feels the same way.

      Originally posted by grog18b View Post
      As he also said, for us, it's the person that does NOT tell you he's armed that we USUALLY have to worry about more. Your situation was unique, and as a matter of fact, I've never heard a similar one in 17+ years.
      You would be amazed at the things that happens outside of PA. Google is your friend...

      Originally posted by grog18b View Post
      We are not saying or implying you are wrong in doing things the way you do them where you work. This is, after all, a discussion forum.
      Your twisting words again, or as I like to call it, SPINNING. Are you sure you werent "implying" I was going a bit to far? This look familiar?
      Originally posted by grog18b View Post
      Were I treated that way, I think there would be a civil rights lawsuit filed...
      Originally posted by grog18b View Post
      We don't do it that way here, and we gave reasons why we don't.
      We DO things that way here and Im telling you why I do them.

      Originally posted by grog18b View Post
      None of us said you are wrong for handling your stops in the way you do. I can't speak for DC and how things work there. I work here. Everyone does the job different, in different places.
      Oh really?
      Originally posted by Blackdog F4i View Post
      I realize that weapons regulations are about a strict as they can be in DC, but I think you are taking it a bit too far.
      Originally posted by grog18b View Post
      Were I treated that way, I think there would be a civil rights lawsuit filed...
      Ok i guess those 2 direct quotes are just my reading comprehension?

      Originally posted by grog18b View Post
      To make a point on something you keep saying... You say that it was a law abiding citizen that you had your encounter with. You then say there were warrants for him. Doesn't sound all that "law abiding" to me so far. Something for you to consider. Every criminal starts out "law abiding".
      He had a traffic bench warrant for "failure to appear". Wow. Real criminal there but where you work, that may be? As far as breaking the law. We all do it every single day no matter how small. 1 mile over the speed limit is "tecnically" breaking the law. I wonder how many of us "law abiding citizens/officers" never exceed the SPEED LIMIT by even 1 mile? Go ahead, tell me you dont.

      Originally posted by grog18b View Post
      Once that guy decided he was going to go for his pistol (which indicates to me, and every other reasonable cop here) he became not so law abiding. Where we work, the vast majority of people we meet on a daily basis are law abiding people.
      That goes for here to. So what exactly is your point?

      Originally posted by grog18b View Post
      Traffic stops don't of themselves make someone non-law abiding. The determination to (apparently) try to commit murder to avoid arrest on traffic warrants indicates to me that the fellow you ran into was vastly not "law abiding". It's a pretty big jump for a law abiding citizen to go for a pistol during a traffic stop.
      Its also a pretty big jump for an idividual to go the route of "attempted murder" when he/she can just deal with the misdemeanor bench warrant. Never knowing who your dealing with? Thx for indirectly reinforcing my point.
      Last edited by CityCopDC; 12-24-2007, 06:33 PM.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by CityCopDC View Post
        What put me on the defensive? I have "officers" from areas OTHER THAN the DC/Balt Metro Area telling ME how things work where they are.

        God forbid! Soooo sorry for offering my opinion.

        I will not question your tactics any further!!

        I bow to your superior "officerness"

        Good luck with that!
        As far as "rights" are concerned; I look at them this way... I don't tell you what church to go to, and you don't tell me what kind of firearm I can own...

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by grog18b View Post
          God forbid! Soooo sorry for offering my opinion.

          I will not question your tactics any further!!

          I bow to your superior "officerness"

          Good luck with that!
          Cute, you missed everything else that went along with that post and you once again SPIN IT to your advantage. Where as, I quoted your ENTIRE post you quote a fraction of mine and try to claim the "superiority game". Back pedal much?

          Oh and incase you cant see it, its 3 posts above.....

          Comment


          • #80
            Okee Dokee, since you asked for it, here it is:

            Originally posted by CityCopDC View Post
            What put me on the defensive? I have "officers" from areas OTHER THAN the DC/Balt Metro Area telling ME how things work where they are. I have no problems with that and always love constructive criticism. It seems to us you have a very big problem with other officers posting their viewsI have done "ride alongs" with Bmore pd and came across a unique situation where a BUSINESS OWNER advised the Balt. Officer that he had a legal permit and a weapon on his person. You know what happened? That Officer asked where the weapon was, asked the gentleman to step out of the car with his hands in the air, he placed the gentleman in cuffs, advised he was not under arrest, retrieved the weapon OFF OF the gentleman, secured it and took the cuffs off of the gentleman. The officer checked his Maryland permit was valid, ran the gentlemans tags and drivers license and guess what? He was on his way with his weapon back in custody and a slight delay. The citizen prior to leaving advised that while he was confused at first as to why he was being placed in cuffs, he now understands in this day and age why the officer did what he did. Now whether its legal for a Maryland permit holder to carry in Balt, I have no idea...

            If placing someone in cuffs equates to felon, then all arrests where you place cuffs on someone are felony arrests? No, they arn't, but I sure wouldn't enjoy being treated like a felon because I exercize a RIGHT.

            And Im telling you how it is HERE. Not in PA, HERE in the Wash/Balt Metro Area.... The citizens are not TREATED as felons, thats what YOU equate it to...

            Yes, that's what I equate it to, as I don't normally treat people that exercize other rights in that manner. Because I don't live and work in DC, I don't have any opinion, or are you trying to take away my free speech right too?

            I would like to think that every officer that takes a sworn oath in their particular jurisdiction feels the same way. Point being?

            You would be amazed at the things that happens outside of PA. Google is your friend... Yeah, 8 foreign countries, and 20 states while in the military. You're right... I don't get out much...

            Your twisting words again, or as I like to call it, SPINNING. Are you sure you werent "implying" I was going a bit to far? This look familiar?
            I wasn't "implying" anything... You ASSUMED. Read into my words whatever you want.

            We DO things that way here and Im telling you why I do them.

            Oh really? Yes, Really.
            Ok i guess those 2 direct quotes are just my reading comprehension?
            I can't speak for Black Dog, but as far as my "quote" goes... I guess I should have worded it, if I were treated that way HERE, there would be a civil rights lawsuit filed.

            He had a traffic bench warrant for "failure to appear". Wow. Real criminal there but where you work, that may be? Not a real criminal, but not a law abiding citizen" either. As far as breaking the law. We all do it every single day no matter how small. 1 mile over the speed limit is "tecnically" breaking the law. I wonder how many of us "law abiding citizens/officers" never exceed the SPEED LIMIT by even 1 mile? Go ahead, tell me you dont. Since I've never received a traffic ticket... On the job or off, You decide.

            That goes for here to. So what exactly is your point? My point is, that just because someone exercizes a RIGHT, does not give anyone the RIGHT to treat them differently than someone who decides not to exercize the same RIGHT. I guess that is a LEAP of judgement for some, too difficult to make. I don't treat people differently because they vote, or are Catholic, or for exercizing any other RIGHT granted under the US Constitution. The problem I have is that some do. Reminds me of the old woman that got shoved to the floor and had her firearms taken away post Katrina. That's called "Infringement of a Right." The lawsuit is still pending. Sad part is that people should not have to sue because their rights are violated. If you haven't guessed, I am a supporter of the Constitution, and of individuals rights. I am also a cop. You may have a different opinion than I do about that sort of stuff, so be it.

            Its also a pretty big jump for an idividual to go the route of "attempted murder" when he/she can just deal with the misdemeanor bench warrant. Never knowing who your dealing with? Thx for indirectly reinforcing my point. If you say so...
            Last edited by grog18b; 12-24-2007, 07:38 PM.
            As far as "rights" are concerned; I look at them this way... I don't tell you what church to go to, and you don't tell me what kind of firearm I can own...

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by grog18b View Post
              Okee Dokee, since you asked for it, here it is:
              So what your saying translates to: If I grog18b place someone in handcuffs, then I am infringing on "their" right to bear arms and I am treating them like a felon?

              So when you perform a "stop and frisk" on someone, I would hope that they would be handcuffed. But going from your "logic" only "criminals OR felons" are to be handcuffed. God forbid if you got some erroneous info and actually handcuffed a law abiding citizen. Would hate to see what would happen if you got a call for a robbery, complainant id's the suspect, cuffs are slapped on and then the "investigation reveals" that the individual you have cuffed is the wrong person. Or you see "mr badguy" walking down the street that matches the description of a wanted subject and it actually turns out to be "Mr Law Abiding Citizen". That would be a no no and Im sure a suit and firing would follow..

              As far as other officers posting their views, I dont tell you how to "investigate" sir, nor do I make judgement calls or critisize my "brothers" anywhere else for the way they do their job, extend the same courtesy when you dont agree with the way someone else does their job and leave the snide comments out also. If you dont agree, then you dont agree. You dont agree with the way I do things, thats cool, I dont answer to you, and you dont walk in my shoes. Being handcuffed= being treated as a felon?????
              Last edited by CityCopDC; 12-24-2007, 09:05 PM.

              Comment


              • #82
                Please Gentlemen, lets just let this one die. I would not handle a CCW stop in California like it would be handled in DC. I support the 2nd amendment. I carried on a CCW before moving to CA and becoming a LEO. I have had encounters range from "thank you for telling me, please keep our hands on the wheel" to Exiting the vehicle, having the officer remove the weapon from my person and placing it in a secure location untill the stop was finished. I viewed it as a small inconvienence to being able to protect myself.

                If DC is like just about any other state, than Illegally carrying a concealed weapon is a FELONY. That would justify treating someone with an illegal weapon as a felon, or conducting a felony stop. The fact that a citizen may be allowed to carry in his/her home state is irrelevant. A concealed weapon is illegal in DC, with the exception of LE and military. Ignorance is no excuse.

                Everybody is right, and entitled to their own opinions. The discussion has gone away from the OP's original question and become a ground for throwing insults. Let's all be the bigger man and refrain from continuing the personal attacks.
                Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.
                --Winston Churchill--

                "Si vis pacem, para bellum"

                Comment


                • #83
                  City cop,
                  I found it ironic that you posted that link. After watching the video, I did a search on it and saw that a CITIZEN saw what was happening, stopped, and KILLED that COP KILLER.
                  If one man can make a difference, every man should.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by saranac View Post
                    City cop,
                    I found it ironic that you posted that link. After watching the video, I did a search on it and saw that a CITIZEN saw what was happening, stopped, and KILLED that COP KILLER.
                    That is effin awesome. If I saw that go down, I totally would have iced that fool.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by SoCalSheriff View Post
                      I have had encounters range from "thank you for telling me, please keep our hands on the wheel" to Exiting the vehicle, having the officer remove the weapon from my person and placing it in a secure location untill the stop was finished. I viewed it as a small inconvienence to being able to protect myself.
                      Kind sir, that was my only point. I have had that very situation happen to me AS A LEO and had no problems with it. I did not feel like I was being treated as a criminal or a felon. I also didnt feel as if my rights "to bear arms" was being infringed upon. Different strokes for different folks and a merry xmas to you and everyone else sir....

                      Originally posted by SoCalSheriff View Post
                      The fact that a citizen may be allowed to carry in his/her home state is irrelevant. A concealed weapon is illegal in DC, with the exception of LE and military. Ignorance is no excuse.
                      I agree and disagree with you at the same time. While it is illegal in DC and ignorance is no excuse, Im still afforded discretion to use, which I did for the "few" individuals I did come in contact with who advised me they were armed. A stern "dont do it again" was enough for me...

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by saranac View Post
                        City cop,
                        I found it ironic that you posted that link. After watching the video, I did a search on it and saw that a CITIZEN saw what was happening, stopped, and KILLED that COP KILLER.
                        You couldnt be more wrong. You need to do some more research and possibly watch that video again.

                        *That CITIZEN didnt "stop". He yeilded the right of way to the officer because the officer's emergency equipment was activated and the citizen observed the officer block the suspect in. The citizen is pulled over to the right.....

                        *The citizen WASNT ARMED. The citizen ran over and retrieved the officers gun AFTER the officer had already been shot and run over.

                        And unfourtunately an officer lost his life....

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by dboogie2288 View Post
                          That is effin awesome. If I saw that go down, I totally would have iced that fool.
                          An officer lost his life.....

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by CityCopDC View Post
                            An officer lost his life.....
                            Chill man, we covered that in a prior post. My comment goes towards the civilian who chose to try and do what he could to subdue an obviously dangerous perp. That's all. Take a xanex, take a bath, I dont care what you take, but chill. It's all good.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              It's interesting how this thread indicates the variety of views on how CCW issues are dealt with across the country. Regional differences are obvious, as are the "City Mouse/Country Mouse" differences in culture relating to use and possession of firearms.

                              Not too long ago, I was getting flamed from a citizen who thought I was "overly agressive" because I'd prone out someone I'd observe carrying a firearm, who hadn't warned me he was legally carrying at the time of the stop. IMO, if someone has a permit to legally carry tells me he's armed (at the time of a "routine" traffic stop) he's doing right by me and keeping the stop low key at the same time. I might take the weapon from him, but I wouldn't handcuff him anymore than I'd handcuff another traffic violator at this stage. If you do and it's an acceptible procedure within your jurisdiction, that's okay.

                              What I don't like (and I'm not saying you do this) is open hostility towards people who own, use or carry firearms lawfully and for legitimate reasons. In many metropolitan areas (L.A. included), politicians (including chiefs of police) are doing everything they can to attack those legitimate gun owners. It's demeaning and causes a lot of unnecessary friction towards working cops.

                              When I was stopped one night as a 19 or 20 year old kid (expired registration) and I told the officers I had a rifle in the back because I was going on a hunting trip, I was telling the truth. The officers inspected the gun to verify it was unloaded (it was), wished me luck on the trip and never treated me as "a threat" (suspect) because I wasn't one. That type of professionalism, is why 30+ years later, I'm in this profession. They treated me right, while doing their job. No cuffs, no drawn weapons, just a traffic stop and a citizen who advised the officers about the presence of a weapon to place them at ease. This is how I'd like to find out about guns on T-stops and how I respond. When I find out through my own observation(s), it's usually because the suspect(s) are intentionally trying to hide them.
                              "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by dboogie2288 View Post
                                Chill man, we covered that in a prior post. My comment goes towards the civilian who chose to try and do what he could to subdue an obviously dangerous perp. That's all. Take a xanex, take a bath, I dont care what you take, but chill. It's all good.
                                Point taken. If I was to tell you to "take a clue" would you be offended?

                                Comment

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