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  • #61
    Originally posted by CityCopDC View Post
    So your telling me you treat all situations involving armed citizens just the same? "Routine" and "complacent"?

    So if you walk up to my car, and your hand is on your weapon, can I take that as an "exaggerated action"?

    Ensuring YOUR safety is nonsense? Yea, you pull over John Q citizen, do you know what his/her motives/actions truly are? You dont know untill that stop is over and both of you go your seaperate ways. And the fact that you ASSUME that just because Mr Citizen gave you a gun permit and a license that this will be another "routine" traffic stop while you sit in your car running ncic/wales and leave a loaded weapon in the possession of a subject you have stopped?? Your right, that is Indiana.....
    "Routine and complacent?" That is your words my friend not mine. As I stated, in my mind everyone is armed-everyone. That mindset works and I am alive today due to it. Just this year I had a convicted murderer pull a weapon on me during a stop. Had I been " routine and complacent" I would more than likely have been wounded or worse.

    IMO an exaggerated action is rifling around in one vehicle just because he has a permit. (read the original post) Something worth noting, a person who in fact tells you they are armed and are a permit holder is more than likely not much of a threat. Besides all that, when you took your job you took with it some risks. I am more than willing to take those risks. I will not deprive someone, a law abiding citizen of their weapon even for the short duration of a traffic stop. Most permit holders are in fact law abiding citizens. I will not take a citizens weapon any more than I would a LEO's weapon that I may have stopped.

    Lastly- it is not my fault that the location you work is one of the murder capitols of the world. Did you ever stop and think that my location does not hold that tittle due to our very unrestrictive gun laws. I believe you will in the next few months, be able to understand that first hand as I think your city's gun laws are about to be nixed as they should be. I do not intend this post in a mean or negative way, so please don't take it that way. Take Care and be carefull.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

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    • #62
      Originally posted by j706 View Post
      "Routine and complacent?" That is your words my friend not mine. As I stated, in my mind everyone is armed-everyone. That mindset works and I am alive today due to it. Just this year I had a convicted murderer pull a weapon on me during a stop.
      Glad your ok. On my "routine" traffic stop, I had a "law abiding citizen" who was "legally armed" and a "permit holder" try to kill me. Fourtunately I won the gunfight and he has 18 years in a cell and his personal wheelchair to think about that.

      Originally posted by j706 View Post
      Had I been " routine and complacent" I would more than likely have been wounded or worse.
      Again, glad your ok.

      Originally posted by j706 View Post
      IMO an exaggerated action is rifling around in one vehicle just because he has a permit. (read the original post)
      How about countinuing to put your hand on a weapon that I have told you several times not to touch, and to keep your hands on the steering wheel?

      Originally posted by j706 View Post
      Something worth noting, a person who in fact tells you they are armed and are a permit holder is more than likely not much of a threat.
      You want me to base this assumption on your experiences or base it as fact? Because the individual I encountered proves you wrong....

      Originally posted by j706 View Post
      Besides all that, when you took your job you took with it some risks.
      Who said I was complaining?

      Originally posted by j706 View Post
      I am more than willing to take those risks. I will not deprive someone, a law abiding citizen of their weapon even for the short duration of a traffic stop.
      I disagree. Unless its another officer or LE, that weapon will NOT be in that persons control for the duration of that stop. PERIOD.

      Originally posted by j706 View Post
      Most permit holders are in fact law abiding citizens.
      So was the guy I was involved in a shootout with.

      Originally posted by j706 View Post
      I will not take a citizens weapon any more than I would a LEO's weapon that I may have stopped.
      Thats something you have to live with not me. Im not as trusting. Whatever works for you, knock yourself out.

      Originally posted by j706 View Post
      Lastly- it is not my fault that the location you work is one of the murder capitols of the world.
      I never said it was. Because that very fact, and that very label, it means Im "more than likely" to be on my p's and q's and not as trusting than where you are where all citizens are good, and they would NEVER harm an officer where you are.

      Originally posted by j706 View Post
      Did you ever stop and think that my location does not hold that tittle due to our very unrestrictive gun laws.
      You may very well be right. I guess us here in DC, Maryland, Baltimore, matter of fact the entire east coast should take note.

      Originally posted by j706 View Post
      I believe you will in the next few months, be able to understand that first hand as I think your city's gun laws are about to be nixed as they should be.
      Im rooting for it also. It still wont change the way I conduct a traffic stop so what is exactly your point?

      Originally posted by j706 View Post
      I do not intend this post in a mean or negative way, so please don't take it that way. Take Care and be carefull.
      By all means, none taken. What I do find funny, as a matter of fact extremely funny is during police week, when all the officers from across the country come to "one of the murder capitols of the world" I cant conduct a simple traffic in the general vicinity of police week activities. Why? Because I have several "off duty" "out of town" cops running up to me hands on guns asking me "what is the felony?" The felony? Its just a simple traffic stop occupied x3. I guess where they work, 2+ people in a car requires SEVERAL officers.

      P.S. One more thing. As far as "one of the murder capitols of the world", DC is ranked 19/25...... Thats pretty dangerous!
      As far a "murder capitol". Well Chicago, St Louis, Baltimore and New York are pretty up there....
      Last edited by CityCopDC; 12-23-2007, 08:46 PM. Reason: spelling

      Comment


      • #63
        Guys there is no reason for anyone here to get so upset we all have our ways of handling things period that doesnt mean that because another officer does it differently its wrong. Example: I stopped a guy he tells me during my are there any drugs, guns, stolen property, etc speech that he has a gun and its in the console loaded and he has a permit now our policy is too seperate them calmy while we check the validity of his permit yes we have come across forged permits before. I do a terry frisk and of course I found the gun a revolver opened it dumped the shells in a pocked and ran the serial numbers came back his permit was good to go we shook hands and he left. Now I know other officers would have done it differently and I can probably learn something from their techniques and possibly vice vesa.
        I have an officer on my shift that lateral transferred from the county sheriffs office he made a stop a few nights ago. Car refused to slow down or stop I saw the vehicle traveling toward me so I activate my lights and they pull into a parking lot, we exit and start speaking with the driver while she is doing so i see the glint of a gun at the same time I say she has a gun the other officer saw what I didnt her hand holding the gun. He never drew down on her but we did have her touch the ceiling of the car, he retrieved the weapon ,got her out and obtained her permit ,ran it and the gun. explained to her what was happening and why. She thanked us several times we let her leave and that was that we all went home. Bottom line is whatever it takes to stay alive if you hurt a citizens feelings big deal if you get shot bad deal.
        Last edited by ALAnarc308; 12-23-2007, 09:35 PM.
        "There is no such thing as too much force to soon" Officer Bumper Morgan

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        • #64
          Originally posted by CityCopDC View Post
          You can own a shotgun or rifle, but cant own a handgun and its virtuall impossible to carry a handgun in the city unless your LE or military.
          I guess if it's "virtually impossible" to carry a handgun in DC, then none are carried or used there to commit crimes? That's nice! Here in Southern California where the local politicians would also like to outlaw handguns, they're carried and often used illegally. Maybe if they were outlawed here (like in DC) our crime rate would to drop to you level? Oh, wait a minute it's already lower. (I'm not blaming you, just the politicians who've saddled all DC cops and honest citizens with a stupid law and try to justifiy it.)
          "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by pulicords View Post
            I guess if it's "virtually impossible" to carry a handgun in DC, then none are carried or used there to commit crimes? That's nice! Here in Southern California where the local politicians would also like to outlaw handguns, they're carried and often used illegally. Maybe if they were outlawed here (like in DC) our crime rate would to drop to you level? Oh, wait a minute it's already lower. (I'm not blaming you, just the politicians who've saddled all DC cops and honest citizens with a stupid law and try to justifiy it.)
            First time a couple of thugs were popped by law abiding citizens.....crap would stop.....but that's just my opinion.....

            Look at DC's rates....then look at Arlington County, Alexandria City, Falls Church, Fairfax City,Fairfax County, etc....rates...

            It's a simple ride over a river.....and a world of difference......

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            • #66
              Originally posted by pulicords View Post
              I guess if it's "virtually impossible" to carry a handgun in DC, then none are carried or used there to commit crimes?
              In a perfect world, badguys always get caught, cops never die and you never have to point your weapon at anyone....

              Originally posted by pulicords View Post
              That's nice! Here in Southern California where the local politicians would also like to outlaw handguns, they're carried and often used illegally.
              Cool, you and I are dealing with the same bueracracy.

              Originally posted by pulicords View Post
              Maybe if they were outlawed here (like in DC) our crime rate would to drop to you level?
              Thats that perfect world thinking

              Originally posted by pulicords View Post
              Oh, wait a minute it's already lower. (I'm not blaming you, just the politicians who've saddled all DC cops and honest citizens with a stupid law and try to justifiy it.)
              Your saying "southern california" which could be any one of a million locations. You have to be a bit more specific than the georgraphic location of southern california. Im not barking at you, I just love how "the officers" who criticize me for going a bit beyond the scope are the same ones who think that because someone has a legal gun permit or a valid drivers license, that person means you no harm. Or my favorite, "your treating them like criminals" . (I apologize, I tend not to take everyones word at face value, especially when they say they are armed... )

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              • #67
                Bearcat...I was referring to regular civilians who cannot carry concealed on post "Ft. Bragg" Not LE. Like i said though if your are stopped for a violation you're still going to have to explain what your reason is for carrying that weapon. You are most likely going to be totally in the right and there will be zero issues and you will have a very nice day, but with the security measures and anti-terror measures we have to comply to it's just how it goes. Its not hard to get "credentials" stores off post sell military police badges to the public......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member1572.png
                You mean I get to have a gun AND handcuffs....how could this get any better?

                as seen on www.berettaforum.net

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                • #68
                  ....................
                  Last edited by Berlioz; 12-24-2007, 06:55 AM.
                  LAPD

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                  • #69
                    Play nice.

                    On some things, we'll never agree.

                    The difference is cultural: Washington DC, New York City, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and some other jurisdictions have a political "anti-gun" culture, where law abiding citizens are (mostly) prevented from carrying a firearm for self protection. That means if an LEO comes across a firearm on an encounter, there's a good chance that a crime is taking place since the firearms holder is a criminal.

                    In most of the rest of the country, the bearing of a firearm by a citizen for self defense can be perfectly legal, especially when traveling. So if there's a stop, it's not always clear that a crime (other than the reason for the stop) is taking place. Those of us who work in areas with more reasonable gun laws tend to be a little less paranoid when dealing with armed citizens.

                    I've made stops where the armed citizen properly ID'd himself either as a CCW holder or, in some cases, pointed out that he had a firearm in the vehicle. I always took steps to protect myself from being shot without the need to put the citizen on the ground or in handcuffs.

                    I understand why DC cop may feel different, given that armed people in DC (other than LEO's) are, by definition, always criminals.

                    As for me, I am ALWAYS tactically sound in any encounter. I EXPECT the other guy to be armed, ALWAYS, and I always act accordingly. Yet, I have never felt a need to put a legally armed citizen on the ground or in cuffs just because they happen to be armed, UNLESS there was some other type of threatening action on their part.

                    It's interesting - in my lifetime of experience, it's never the legally armed citizens who make the proper notification, who pose a threat. It's always those who hide the fact that they carry some type of weapon, whether it's a gun or other instrument. THOSE are the ones we need to worry about, not those who have taken the steps to get a CCW permit.
                    Politically Correct? No.

                    Truthful? Yes!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by warrior_oh58d View Post
                      Bearcat...I was referring to regular civilians who cannot carry concealed on post "Ft. Bragg" Not LE. Like i said though if your are stopped for a violation you're still going to have to explain what your reason is for carrying that weapon. You are most likely going to be totally in the right and there will be zero issues and you will have a very nice day, but with the security measures and anti-terror measures we have to comply to it's just how it goes. Its not hard to get "credentials" stores off post sell military police badges to the public......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                      This is just me.....having been a MP on several large posts......

                      If they are military and are carrying CCW.....I am probably going to let them go.....unless they present an attitude....

                      Civilian with CCW.....we are going to be chatting.....but one would suspect that they would be kicked loose if all they are doing is a traffic violation and advised not to bring it on post again......

                      That's just me.....I'm not going to jam up an otherwise law bidding person on CCW.....

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I wonder how a traffic stop goes if a LEO pulls over another LEO or Person under the Law Enforcement Umbrella who are authorized by their department to carry such as, Probations, Parole, State investigator, Game warden etc.. Example: you approach the car for a traffic stop and visibly see a weapon, or maybe you don't, but the person identifies who they are and they have a weapon but you don't see one. Does the level of caution decrease or increase until you are able to verify who they are?
                        Last edited by Macquaid; 12-24-2007, 09:13 AM.
                        Line is ready. Shooters ready. Attention!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Macquaid View Post
                          I wonder how a traffic stop goes if a LEO pulls over another LEO or Person under the Law Enforcement Umbrella who are authorized by their department to carry such as, Probations, Parole, State investigator, Game warden etc.. Example: you approach the car for a traffic stop and visibly see a weapon, or maybe you don't, but the person identifies who they are and they have a weapon but you don't see one. Does the level of caution decrease or increase until you are able to verify who they are?
                          Show me proper LE ID, off you go....

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            We have caught cops traveling with kilos who were armed. I will not name the agency that they were from to prevent further embarassment. Just because it is a cop, an armed CCW permit holder on a traffic stop should be treated the same as a cop. CityCopDC, your justification for the way you treat CCW permit holders is based on a single event commonly referred to as the exception to the rule. I believe that you may have some issues with post traumatic stress and it has a negative affect on persons you come in contact with who may save an officers life or a cititizen someday. I do not know any CCW holder that would not stop if he saw you engaged in a gun fight on the side of the road. I had a negative experience with a legal firearm and still thank God that I did not squeeze the trigger but I was more than justified in doing so. He and I are alive because I was trained to remain alert at all times. He needed a gun pointed at him based on his actions similar to what you described. That person's mistake should not be paid for by the good guys. Me personally, I do not disarm unless absolutely necessary. Police Officers are killed by compliant traffic violators without warning. If we were to base one situation on how we treat the rest of the world, all traffic stops would be felony take downs until the citation is issued.
                            If one man can make a difference, every man should.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by saranac View Post
                              We have caught cops traveling with kilos who were armed. I will not name the agency that they were from to prevent further embarassment.
                              We have had officers from other jurisdictions caught leaving the scene of an accident while armed, robbery (of course armed) DUI/DWI you name it. It doesnt happen often but it does happen.

                              Originally posted by saranac View Post
                              Just because it is a cop, an armed CCW permit holder on a traffic stop should be treated the same as a cop.
                              I dont and wont agree. Billybadass who's associated with known gang and illegal criminal activity because he has a clean record and can obtain a CCW permit your telling me Im to treat him like an officer?

                              Originally posted by saranac View Post
                              CityCopDC, your justification for the way you treat CCW permit holders is based on a single event commonly referred to as the exception to the rule.
                              Would it have maybe something to do with the fact that I want to take possession of a weapon thats being carried ON a person? Im not talking about in the glove compt or the trunk.

                              Originally posted by saranac View Post
                              I believe that you may have some issues with post traumatic stress and it has a negative affect on persons you come in contact with who may save an officers life or a cititizen someday.
                              So now your "certified" to make evaluations in someone's mental health, especially over the internet. Thats interesting.....

                              Originally posted by saranac View Post
                              I do not know any CCW holder that would not stop if he saw you engaged in a gun fight on the side of the road.
                              So your telling me that ALL CCW holders will gladly and willingly just throw themselves into the middle of a gunfight? And I take it you have interviewed or surveyed "all" of these permit holders to ascertain if they in actuality would stop?

                              Originally posted by saranac View Post
                              I had a negative experience with a legal firearm and still thank God that I did not squeeze the trigger but I was more than justified in doing so.
                              You have to do what you can stand.

                              Originally posted by saranac View Post
                              He and I are alive because I was trained to remain alert at all times.
                              What officer is NOT trained to be alert?

                              Originally posted by saranac View Post
                              He needed a gun pointed at him based on his actions similar to what you described.
                              And the subject on my traffic stop also needed a gun pointed at him, that didnt work.

                              Originally posted by saranac View Post
                              That person's mistake should not be paid for by the good guys.
                              And what exactly is this "price" thats being paid?

                              Originally posted by saranac View Post
                              Me personally, I do not disarm unless absolutely necessary.
                              Me personally, I dont want someone having a loaded wepon on THEIR PERSON while im dealing with them.

                              Originally posted by saranac View Post
                              Police Officers are killed by compliant traffic violators without warning.
                              Oh really?
                              This isnt a "compliant" traffic violator...

                              Originally posted by saranac View Post
                              If we were to base one situation on how we treat the rest of the world, all traffic stops would be felony take downs until the citation is issued.
                              You do whatever you feel comfortable with, and as will I. Thanks for your input though!!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by CityCopDC View Post
                                Oh really?
                                This isnt a "compliant" traffic violator...

                                You do whatever you feel comfortable with, and as will I. Thanks for your input though!!
                                Ok yeah, that sucks and all, but lets see the officer walked up, sprayed him, and walked away back towards the suspect. He was wrong.

                                I can't say that I'd expect to be treated as an officer, but I'll say again; bad guys wont tell you straight up they are carrying with permit in hand.

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