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  • Stories of traffic stops and leagal firearms..

    I am a valid IN personal protection permit holder, and carry my glock with me at most times. The past 2 out of 3 times I've been pulled over, I have been ordered out of my vehicle and have been searched/had my car 'lightly' searched to retrieve my weapon. Now, I certainly don't mind having an officer hold onto my firearm during the stop, not an issue, what I do have an issue with is him/her rummaging through my car to retrieve it.

    I'm sure it's a legal tightrope, but they know immediately when they take my license as I provide my permit as well, and even before they approach the car my hands are on my door in plain sight so I almost take offense to being pulled out of my car and being searched. I have nothing to hide, if I were ever asked politely for a search, I would consent....provided they put everything back in the trunk that they take out..

    My most recent stop (yea yea yea, I have a heavy foot at times... ) was on my motorcycle, and my glock - as well as my wallet, were in my tank bag. Before I ever made a move towards it I advised the officer that I was a permit holder, and that my firearm was in my bag and offered to let him retrieve my wallet. He let me know it was ok, and once all the paperwork was forked over, I stood away from my bike until he was done with everything. I appreciated his response as he did not immediately treat me like I was in the wrong by searching my property.

    How do you guys personally handle it, and how do your 'violators' handle your reaction? I'm just curious to know.

  • #2
    I have had "good" encounters and VERY BAD encounters with Personal Protection Permit holders.

    Usually, if I have stopped you for a minor traffic violation and discover that you have a permit BEFORE I see the weapon, I am probably just going to secure the weapon, conduct the stop, then return the unloaded weapon and ammunition to you with instructions on not to load it until I have pulled away. I am a VERY firm believer in the right of citizens to arm and protect themselves. I carried before I became an officer. HOWEVER, I am a very firm believer in my right to continue to breath and to go home to my family. That supercedes any of your rights. While in your mind you KNOW you are a law abiding citizen who would never hurt a fly, I DON'T KNOW YOU. For all I know you just killed your wife and you are on your way to Mexico, Canada, etc. As long as you make a point not to provide me with any suprises, our stop is going to go well. Indiana does not have a "duty to notify" law. HOWEVER you DO NOT want me to "accidentally" see your wepon. That cranks it up to a possible lethal force encounter for me and will result in you having a gun drawn on you.

    Most of my stops on permit holders go totally uneventfully, and I make sure I attempt to make them feel as comfortable as possible.

    I did make a stop in a "high drug and crime" area. I approached the driver and asked him for his information. He promptly (without advising me of anything) popped open his glovebox and began to reach for a nickel plated handgun. The only reason he is still breathing is because I was faster on the draw and had enough time to issue a warning before I shot him. As soon as I issued the warning he froze and we took it from there. He ended up cuffed face down on the ground until I could determine that the weapon and his permit was legit and that he was just stupid.

    I can gaurantee he will NEVER EVER make that mistake again.
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
    8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

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    • #3
      I would like to also ask a question relevant to this post: (I am not a LEO)

      In NY is there any "duty to notify" law? lol, just curious because if I ever get stopped on the way to the range, I have more than a few guns... all are transported in hard cases, unloaded, seperate from ammo... just wondering if I should be expecting to hang out with the officer for a while showing off all my toys or the officer won't care that much about them as long as its not something like a loaded pistol in the center console?

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      • #4
        I will not perform an illegal search on your person or your vehicle. I also will not allow you to handle the weapon. My expectation is you'll tell me about it before I see it and I will extract it from its position until the stop is over.
        d

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        • #5
          If you tell me off the break that you have a weapon on you Im going to do two things.

          1st- Your going to tell me EXACTLY where the weapon is.

          2nd- Once I know where the gun is, Im going to ask you to step out of the vehicle facing away from me, with your hands in the air. (My weapon will be at the low ready, pointed in your direction.) You will get down on your knees and follow my commands to put your hands behind your back. I will clearly advise you that you are not under arrest. I will approach you and handcuff you. Its at this point in time that its in your best interest not to make any sudden movements. I will handcuff you, retrieve the weapon, unload the weapon and secure it. Stand you up, confirm who you are and then take the cuffs off of you. My way is a little more drastic as I have been involved in 2 shootings and one of them was on a traffic stop....

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          • #6
            You're going to find different officers and different departments will deal with this is drastically different ways. If its in a locked compartment of your vehicle, such as glove box, I'll have you lock it, place the keys on the roof, and then leave your hands on the steering wheel with your dome light on if I can reasonably observe you in your vehicle while completing my business. That way neither of us has to handle your firearm, which seems safer to me. I carried for years before being an LEO and am familiar with most types of guns, but some of the ones we run across are in such poor condition I'd rather not handle it even to unload it. If its on your person or in an unsecured area, then I'll unload it.

            However, as to the question of the legality of the search: It's a Terry "frisk" of the vehicle. The US Supreme Court has upheld that an officer can do a quick check of the areas of the vehicle you can reach in a search for weapons if there is a reasonable belief such weapons exist. By having one, there is a reasonable suspicion there could be more.
            I miss you, Dave.
            http://www.odmp.org/officer/20669-of...david-s.-moore

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            • #7
              Look at it from the officer's perspective. When he pulls you over, he doesn't know if you Father O'Malley on his way home from church or Ted Bundy on his way home from a mass murder. When he discovers on his own that you have a gun it causes the Oh Cr*p o-meter to peg into the red. He doesn't know why you have it so he's going to be cautious and take control of the situation (as mentioned above, Terry v. Ohio allows officers to do this).

              However, if the first thing out of your mouth is something along the lines of "Officer, FYI I have a Glock in the glove box." the officer isn't as likely to feel quite as threatened. Most people don't tell us about their weapon before an ambush.

              You might still get pulled out of the car, but you also might not. It depends on the officer. Some states require you to tell an officer if you're carrying (Alaska does). However, even if not required by law it's a good idea to tell the officer up front.

              Hope that helps.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CityCopDC View Post
                2nd- Once I know where the gun is, Im going to ask you to step out of the vehicle facing away from me, with your hands in the air. (My weapon will be at the low ready, pointed in your direction.) You will get down on your knees and follow my commands to put your hands behind your back. I will clearly advise you that you are not under arrest. I will approach you and handcuff you. Its at this point in time that its in your best interest not to make any sudden movements. I will handcuff you, retrieve the weapon, unload the weapon and secure it. Stand you up, confirm who you are and then take the cuffs off of you. My way is a little more drastic as I have been involved in 2 shootings and one of them was on a traffic stop....

                Man I am glad that I never got stopped while I was in DC. My kid would have freaked out and my wife probably wouldn't have been to happy.

                Obviously you have a right to do what you need to do to ensure your safety, but I am a firm believer in being "reasonable" and looking at the totality of the circumstances.

                I realize that weapons regulations are about a strict as they can be in DC, but I think you are taking it a bit too far.
                "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
                8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Blackdog F4i View Post
                  Man I am glad that I never got stopped while I was in DC. My kid would have freaked out and my wife probably wouldn't have been to happy.

                  Obviously you have a right to do what you need to do to ensure your safety, but I am a firm believer in being "reasonable" and looking at the totality of the circumstances.

                  I realize that weapons regulations are about a strict as they can be in DC, but I think you are taking it a bit too far.
                  Agreed.... Though I understand a little paranoia after an incident as he has been involved in, but if I am a mindful citizen who has provided information about my possession of a firearm (without necessarily needing to - depending on law), I would be quite disturbed to be handcuffed and put on the ground. I [at that point] have done nothing aggressive and have voluntarily told you about said firearm.

                  DC - How have the law abiding people who legally possess a firearm felt about your particular way of controlling the situation?

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                  • #10
                    In Califironia there arent many people with CCW's, and I have never actually stopped one. But I think I would be a lot more low key about it then other posters. If A guy tells me about the gun I dont think he is going to try to kill me with it as he has given up any tactical advantage he had, and if he has a CCW he has no ciminal history. I dont like the idea of unloading it or even handling it. I would worry that he would shoot himself reloading it.

                    Depending on the guys attitude, I would verify the gun was not on his person then have him step out of the car, do a cursery pat down and finish the encounter with him away form the gun. I dont think I would and cuff him.

                    I did have an encounter with an off duty cop once, who was in a park after hours. I guess they were having a bad night and the guy had an attitude prior to telling me he was a cop. As I got out of my car to address the poor atitude he told me he was a cop and told me he had a gun in his waistband. His buddy on the other side of the car also was an armed off duty cop. I was inches away at this point and had to think fast, I grabbed the guys gun out of his holster with my weak hand then pulled my gun out with my strong hand. I covered them both with both guns then directed the guy to slowly show me his ID. It worked out, but not the best plan overall, it was just something I came up with spur of the moment.
                    Originally posted by FJDave
                    GM, you have just set the bar that much higher for the rest of us in our witty, sarcastic responses. I yield to you! Good job, kind Sir!

                    District B13
                    "We are not cops nor Feds." yet he still poses as an officer Hmmmm


                    Grant us grace, fearlessly, to contend against evil and to make no peace with oppression.--WWII memorial

                    "I have loved justice and hated iniquity, therefore I die in exile."

                    Pope Gregory V II

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Blackdog F4i View Post
                      Man I am glad that I never got stopped while I was in DC. My kid would have freaked out and my wife probably wouldn't have been to happy.

                      Obviously you have a right to do what you need to do to ensure your safety, but I am a firm believer in being "reasonable" and looking at the totality of the circumstances.

                      I realize that weapons regulations are about a strict as they can be in DC, but I think you are taking it a bit too far.
                      You think Im taking it a bit to far? Thats your opinion and you are entitled to it. However the scenario was poised as if he were riding ALONE. I have common sense, and if you were riding with your family obviously I would go through other means as not to frighten or alarm your family. However because I dont KNOW YOU or your family my one and only concern is the weapon(s) thats in that car. You will be inconviencied. If I was taking it to far, you would be face down on the pavement palms to the sky.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dboogie2288 View Post
                        Agreed.... Though I understand a little paranoia after an incident as he has been involved in, but if I am a mindful citizen who has provided information about my possession of a firearm (without necessarily needing to - depending on law), I would be quite disturbed to be handcuffed and put on the ground. I [at that point] have done nothing aggressive and have voluntarily told you about said firearm.

                        DC - How have the law abiding people who legally possess a firearm felt about your particular way of controlling the situation?
                        You can NOT legally own a handgun or carry a handgun in DC concealed or unconcealed. Only Law Enforcement and Military. As far as the law abiding citizens, how did they feel about my handling of the situation? They didnt like it one bit as they went to jail.... Read what I bolded for you above....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by CityCopDC View Post
                          [B]You can NOT legally own a handgun or carry a handgun in DC concealed or unconcealed.
                          Well that answers that right there. I know where I'm not moving to!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            DC, you've never stopped an off duty, armed cop? Just a question... Were I treated that way, I think there would be a civil rights lawsuit filed... Fortunately, there was, and the Supreme Court will be hearing it next year. Yet another good reason (as if I needed any more) not to go to my Nation's Capitol. (That's just sad, isn't it? Anyone else see the irony that, the Capitol of the free world, restricts it's citizens so much.) I'm not picking on you DC, as you have your own set of laws and regs to abide by. If someone here did what you describe, they'd be sued (and fired).
                            As far as "rights" are concerned; I look at them this way... I don't tell you what church to go to, and you don't tell me what kind of firearm I can own...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by grog18b View Post
                              DC, you've never stopped an off duty, armed cop?
                              All the time. They show me the creds and off they go.

                              Originally posted by grog18b View Post
                              Just a question... Were I treated that way, I think there would be a civil rights lawsuit filed... Fortunately, there was, and the Supreme Court will be hearing it next year.
                              Are you a cop? If your an officer, I dont need to pull you out at gun point. Show me your creds and keep it moving.

                              Originally posted by grog18b View Post
                              Yet another good reason (as if I needed any more) not to go to my Nation's Capitol.
                              There are several other wonderful locations in this beautiful country you can explore.

                              Originally posted by grog18b View Post
                              (That's just sad, isn't it? Anyone else see the irony that, the Capitol of the free world, restricts it's citizens so much.)
                              I didnt make the laws sir. If you have a problem with it, call your local senator?

                              Originally posted by grog18b View Post
                              I'm not picking on you DC, as you have your own set of laws and regs to abide by. If someone here did what you describe, they'd be sued (and fired).
                              Well I guess it sucks to be where you are then huh? Before you go getting all cute there are a few facts that you need to understand. March/01 I initiated a traffic stop of a citizen who simply ran a red light. Once I made contact with the driver, he advised me that he had a legal permit to carry a weapon and that the weapon was on him. For reasons till this day I still cant explain, the DRIVER countinued to put his hands on that weapon even after repeated commandsto keep his hands on the steering wheel. The driver then proceeded to open the door to his car while I back pedaled to mine. Its at this point that "Mr CITIZEN" decided that he was not going to jail for a simple traffic warrant he had. And thats when I was involved in my second shooting.

                              Before you criticise me for my actions, atleast know what you speak of. A LAW ABIDING Citizen who had a legal permit to carry a gun, decided that he was not going to go to jail. Albeit he and I would have had to discuss him being in possession of a firearm while in the district. I decided I wanted to live that day, he will spend the next 18 years in prison, paralyzed from the waist down. If I stop a citizen with a weapon on them, my course of action I take is to preserve my life and not have the same **** that happened to me before happen again. My dept cleared me of any wrong doing as well as the US attorneys office. Of course the family sued me, and lost but thats the way of the world. One more thing. Hard to monday morning quaterback when you were not there...
                              Last edited by CityCopDC; 12-19-2007, 08:46 PM. Reason: spelling

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