Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Serious question to long-serving LEO's

Collapse

300x250 Mobile

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Serious question to long-serving LEO's

    Many years ago on this platform, I wrote about having something similar to the Gendarnarie from Turkey and how they could take runs together when dispatched. The idea is that the Gendarmarie, or Jandarma, whichever way it's spelled, would stand up to scrutiny from the butt hurt left. In our case today, instead of calling in the NG to support our LEO's in riot enforcement (and other areas), what about having them in the "ride along" type of scenario. Number one, they would have to be handpicked by a board who checks out their entire Military Hx, and would be good in depositions for litigation purposes, and would be armed and have full training through the local PD. Instead of the role of the Jandarma which is more like Judge Dredd, they would be a partner and observer who could serve as a witness or to assist the officer if needed tactically. They could also back up K-9 units and serve in the same way. When I suggested this 12 years ago or so it was met with scrutiny and chucked aside. This was after two Miami officers (uif I remember correctly) were gunned down assassin style. I just felt then as I do now the left wants anarchy and the thin blue line is all that protects us from that. Knowing the trust the American people have in the Military it would conscientiously have a positive effect. I also think it would be a great opportunity to get a career started after the Military into Blue, AND increase esprit de corps across the board (Morale).

    Thoughts?

  • #2
    Originally posted by that's my hand View Post
    Many years ago on this platform, I wrote about having something similar to the Gendarnarie from Turkey and how they could take runs together when dispatched. The idea is that the Gendarmarie, or Jandarma, whichever way it's spelled, would stand up to scrutiny from the butt hurt left. In our case today, instead of calling in the NG to support our LEO's in riot enforcement (and other areas), what about having them in the "ride along" type of scenario. Number one, they would have to be handpicked by a board who checks out their entire Military Hx, and would be good in depositions for litigation purposes, and would be armed and have full training through the local PD. Instead of the role of the Jandarma which is more like Judge Dredd, they would be a partner and observer who could serve as a witness or to assist the officer if needed tactically. They could also back up K-9 units and serve in the same way. When I suggested this 12 years ago or so it was met with scrutiny and chucked aside. This was after two Miami officers (uif I remember correctly) were gunned down assassin style. I just felt then as I do now the left wants anarchy and the thin blue line is all that protects us from that. Knowing the trust the American people have in the Military it would conscientiously have a positive effect. I also think it would be a great opportunity to get a career started after the Military into Blue, AND increase esprit de corps across the board (Morale).

    Thoughts?
    No, just no

    #1 LIABILITY
    No armed individual "backing up" on duty cops unless they are fully certified ,trained and sworn LEO's Anything short of that opens the agency to HUGE liability factors.

    #2 RISK
    Anytime another person other than a sworn officer is in a police squad...........the primary officer is going to be worried about taking care of the rider. That person at some point is going to be a distraction and potentially make a call more dangerous for the officer.

    #3 PRACTICALITY
    Funding..................................Defund the Police


    Iowa Corrections implemented something like this over 15 yrs ago. We had a number of suicides among inmates over all of the agency. Many of them happened while the inmate was on a close watch status (Think Epstein ). The general population was talking about how the inmates were "murdered" in their watch cell (Again Think Epstein)

    A trial program was instituted at my facility where specially screened and trained inmates were assigned to "accompany" a possible suicidal inmate into the close watch area and "assist" with watching that person while on suicide watch.

    Said inmate would be stationed outside the watch cell but in full view of the subject. We would basically have a 24/7 eyes on the subject with the unit officer logging a 15 minute watch and the inmate assistant logging 5 minute watches.

    Seeings how close watch cells were in locked down areas and that the inmate assistant was "free to roam" the unit ...........the program was met with resistance. Especially when only one officer was assigned to the unit. The program expanded to the entire system and is still in use.

    Inmates still die on suicide , the program is still in use, & inmates still accuse staff of killing inmates in watch status. Staff is still leery of the inmates out of cells during times of darkness.

    In other words .................nothing much has changed
    Since some people need to be told by notes in crayon .......Don't PM me with without prior permission. If you can't discuss the situation in the open forum ----it must not be that important

    My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

    Comment


    • #3
      It is just a bad idea on so many levels, the mind simply boggles trying to put pen to paper.

      Comment


      • #4
        None of the above even touches on the legal problem of using military in a civilian law enforcment role, which is a violation of Posse Comitatus in the US.
        "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
        -Friedrich Nietzsche

        Comment


        • #5
          I appreciate the responses.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bing_Oh View Post
            None of the above even touches on the legal problem of using military in a civilian law enforcment role, which is a violation of Posse Comitatus in the US.
            1. Doesn’t apply to national guard on state active duty.

            2. Doesn’t apply to federal military forces when the feds don’t want it to apply.

            Posse Comitatus was created to relieve the Army of responsibility of tracking down every criminal that town sheriffs didn’t want to chase. It doesn’t restrict the federal government from acting when it wants to.

            I have performed duty similar to the OP’s suggestion when I was a National Guard MP.

            There are departments near military bases that perform joint patrols.

            It could be done, using MPs, but why not just hire the MP as a cop since you’re taking them away from their full time job anyway.
            Last edited by tanksoldier; 06-16-2020, 08:06 PM.
            "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

            "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tanksoldier View Post

              1. Doesn’t apply to national guard on state active duty.

              2. Doesn’t apply to federal military forces when the feds don’t want it to apply.

              Posse Comitatus was created to relieve the Army of responsibility of tracking down every criminal that town sheriffs didn’t want to chase. It doesn’t restrict the federal government from acting when it wants to.

              I have performed duty similar to the OP’s suggestion when I was a National Guard MP.

              There are departments near military bases that perform joint patrols.

              It could be done, using MPs, but why not just hire the MP as a cop since you’re taking them away from their full time job anyway.
              1. The Gendarmarie, which the OP used as the original reference, are active duty military, not national guard. His scenario also doesn't seem to fit a national guard duty, as his description would be a full-time contingent assigned to work alongside the local police.

              2. The law states that military can only be used in times of declared federal emergency (civil unrest, natural disaster, insurrection, etc). It's definitely not "when the feds don't want it to apply."
              "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
              -Friedrich Nietzsche

              Comment


              • #8
                It's JUST an idea, it's not legislated and for all I know it wouldn't work. It's JUST an idea. Laws would have to change, but the program has been used successfully in other parts of the world.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by that's my hand View Post
                  It's JUST an idea, it's not legislated and for all I know it wouldn't work. It's JUST an idea. Laws would have to change, but the program has been used successfully in other parts of the world.
                  Lots of things have worked in other parts of the world. For many years in Spain the cops were either unpaid or very small stipends, and when citizens called the cops it was understood that payment was due for services rendered (not a recipe for fair and unbiased law enforcement, IMO). Throughout Latin America to this day many law enforcement agencies are little more than organized protection rackets.

                  Generally speaking, active duty US military personnel are prohibited from engaging in civil law enforcement (Posse Comitatus Act), with the only exceptions being federally-declared emergencies and martial law declarations. Assist with technology, OK. Provide temporary facilities to assist, generally OK. Actively engaging in law enforcement operations, not so OK.

                  When I first started in 1972 I worked a city with several military installations. The Military Police had an office and detention facility downtown and provided a couple of patrol vehicles with MP's. This was a practical matter of dealing with military personnel involved in various infractions; we could turn them over to the MP's rather than booking them into jail (drunks, DUI, fights, domestics, other run of the mill stuff), MP's returned them to their units on restricted status, and their unit command made sure they appeared in court when required. MP's had no authority over civilians, only active military personnel.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This is one of those deals that you can get lost in the weeds on pretty fastdepending on which side your on. Being involved in something like this would require a very high level of maturity. No one under 10 years Time in Service, and would be better to have someone in a special tactics type of MOS/AFSC. I think this could be a 3 year special duty tour, and then back to their original field of duty. I wouldn't suggest something like this as an orthodox way of LE. This is something that would have to be well thought out, hand-pciked by LEO's in conjuction with Senior NCO's, and Commanders, etc ... it would be a force multiplier.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I was sitting here thinking and it dawned on me that I served with the guy in Knoxville TN, who was known as the cop who nailed the "Hooter's Shooter." He was at that time a Guard troop. So he was already serving under two hats. I also served in another location with a guy who was a UDT guy who was SWAT for many years. In some cases yo can get a high quality partner on the beat that makes the depat better. Many have shown the skills to serve in either capacity. The guy in Knxville could kick the door jamb from a still position.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by that's my hand View Post
                        I was sitting here thinking and it dawned on me that I served with the guy in Knoxville TN, who was known as the cop who nailed the "Hooter's Shooter." He was at that time a Guard troop. So he was already serving under two hats. I also served in another location with a guy who was a UDT guy who was SWAT for many years. In some cases yo can get a high quality partner on the beat that makes the depat better. Many have shown the skills to serve in either capacity. The guy in Knxville could kick the door jamb from a still position.
                        BUT in each and every one of those situations ................the person was a trained, sworn LEO..............So you are talking Apples vs Oranges

                        I served with a cop who was a Army Reserve officer. He retired as a Lieutenant in a larger police agency and 2 yrs later retired from the Army as a One Star General .................his brother was in the Iowa National Guard AND a police officer who retired from the NG as a Command Sgt Major.

                        About 20 % of the officers/deputies I have served with over the yrs were dual hatted as Sworn Officers / Military Reserve or NG.
                        Since some people need to be told by notes in crayon .......Don't PM me with without prior permission. If you can't discuss the situation in the open forum ----it must not be that important

                        My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by that's my hand View Post
                          This is one of those deals that you can get lost in the weeds on pretty fastdepending on which side your on. Being involved in something like this would require a very high level of maturity. No one under 10 years Time in Service, and would be better to have someone in a special tactics type of MOS/AFSC. I think this could be a 3 year special duty tour, and then back to their original field of duty. I wouldn't suggest something like this as an orthodox way of LE. This is something that would have to be well thought out, hand-pciked by LEO's in conjuction with Senior NCO's, and Commanders, etc ... it would be a force multiplier.
                          So the best trained people in the military should be rolling around in a cruiser instead of doing what they are highly (and expensively) trained to do?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bing_Oh View Post

                            1. The Gendarmarie, which the OP used as the original reference, are active duty military, not national guard. His scenario also doesn't seem to fit a national guard duty, as his description would be a full-time contingent assigned to work alongside the local police.
                            ....but national guard on state active duty, would be active duty and military, just not federal military. I was a full-time Guardsman for years. I pushed paper at a desk but there's nothing preventing a state from bringing troops onto long term active duty for such a mission.

                            When I was assigned to OTAG in Sacramento there was talk of bringing a platoon of MPs onto permanent active duty to stand fixed posts at the capitol and reduce the number of CHP officers assigned.

                            After 9/11 there was a plan to bring a composite brigade onto active duty, consisting of MP, Chemical, medical, engineer and transport battalions. Didn't go anywhere, mostly because everybody was being federalized anyway, but they could have done it.

                            ...and the laws are different in France, where the Gendarmarie are both civilian police and a branch of the national military.

                            2. The law states that military can only be used in times of declared federal emergency (civil unrest, natural disaster, insurrection, etc). It's definitely not "when the feds don't want it to apply."
                            ...the federal govt declaring disaster or insurrection is the very definition of "when the feds don't want it to".

                            Again, the whole point of the law is not to reduce the federal government's ability to respond when necessary, but to remove the burden of unnecessary missions.

                            Same with the insurrection Act. It states the President MAY deploy federal forces at the request of a governor. He doesn't HAVE to, he MAY... and nothing says he has to wait for such a request before deploying them.

                            My whole job at OTAG was "military support to civil authority"... I've briefed governors and state legislators on this stuff. The legalese is more complex, but essentially the laws all come down to "the federal government can do what it thinks it needs to do, and states can ask for help".
                            Last edited by tanksoldier; 06-17-2020, 04:21 PM.
                            "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

                            "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by just joe View Post

                              So the best trained people in the military should be rolling around in a cruiser instead of doing what they are highly (and expensively) trained to do?
                              joe, instead look at it like this is a way to enhance the skills of both the warfighter and the police. I think it deserves a closer look. We must do everything within our republics power to keep law and order. Wouldn't you agree?

                              Comment

                              MR300x250 Tablet

                              Collapse

                              What's Going On

                              Collapse

                              There are currently 3463 users online. 237 members and 3226 guests.

                              Most users ever online was 26,947 at 07:36 PM on 12-29-2019.

                              Welcome Ad

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X