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  • Va Tech concealed carry hindsight

    Ok, now that some of the finger pointing has died down and some insight has been shed on the masacre how many L.E. now wish there would have been atleast one or more responsible armed citizens or other on campus that day in those class rooms? I know when it happened some cops actually stated they didn't feel comfortable with college kids carrying due to "some" of their lifestyles but I have to say how much worse than "32" could it have been regardless? Thread on/input please.
    "Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. The MARINES don't have that problem." ....Ronald Reagan

  • #2
    Allowing permit holders to carry weapons in classrooms is not the answer in my opinion. A good majority of the students in these schools are under the legal age to even own a handgun in TN, let alone carry one. Thinking back on my college days, I would not want most of my college buds to be carrying.

    Maturity comes with age, and I don't see enough to dictate the carrying of a handgun in class by students.

    Teachers could be a possibility, or maybe even a bill to boost hiring for campus law enforcement.
    I'm 10-8 like a shark in a sea of crime..

    Comment


    • #3
      thanks for your input

      Originally posted by SgtScott31 View Post
      Allowing permit holders to carry weapons in classrooms is not the answer in my opinion. A good majority of the students in these schools are under the legal age to even own a handgun in TN, let alone carry one. Thinking back on my college days, I would not want most of my college buds to be carrying.

      Maturity comes with age, and I don't see enough to dictate the carrying of a handgun in class by students.

      Teachers could be a possibility, or maybe even a bill to boost hiring for campus law enforcement.
      Va legal handgun carry is 21yrs old. Not all college students are in the underage category. Quite a few are combat war veterans also on the GI bill and Police Officers taking classes on campus just as I was when I got outta the first Gulf War. So you can't really lump them all together as people you wouldn't want to carry. I agree a great deal are not mature enough however there are the acceptions and on that day all those 32 victims needed was ONE acception to the rule. I have a 17 year old stepson who ive taken shooting since he was 9 and is an excellant marksman in everyting from the M14 and M4 to smaller 22 rifles and handguns. Im sure in the south especially with outdoors being such a big part of the culture of kids that go to Va Tech a historically conservative agriculturial school with kids and adults of the same make up there just may have been a couple in those classrooms that could have made a difference. Thanks for replying though
      "Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. The MARINES don't have that problem." ....Ronald Reagan

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      • #4
        IMHO, laws prohibiting a 21 year old from carrying a legal weapon on campus are WRONG.

        I can go along with the prohibitions on carrying in a night club but most of the other restriced areas, IMO, are WRONG.

        Sign me up in the Pro-carry column and add professors to the list of potentially responsible candidates for CCW.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Camo Cop View Post
          IMHO, laws prohibiting a 21 year old from carrying a legal weapon on campus are WRONG.

          I can go along with the prohibitions on carrying in a night club but most of the other restriced areas, IMO, are WRONG.

          Sign me up in the Pro-carry column and add professors to the list of potentially responsible candidates for CCW.
          You and I will have to agree to disagree. There are far more immature 21 yr olds than mature ones. Strapping everyone with a gun in school is not the answer.

          Leave it up to LEO's on or off-duty and campus professors who are subject to CCW laws and additional firearms training including active shooter training.

          The problem is deeper than people who were not carrying guns to stop the shooter. If you look at all the school shootings, isolated as they were, you will see that the real problem was the shooter themselves. VA Tech involved someone with definite mental issues that screamed that he was a threat. Columbine involved a couple of kids that also had multiple indicators.

          This needs to be a proactive issue, not a reactive one.
          I'm 10-8 like a shark in a sea of crime..

          Comment


          • #6
            Mental illness

            Originally posted by SgtScott31 View Post
            You and I will have to agree to disagree. There are far more immature 21 yr olds than mature ones. Strapping everyone with a gun in school is not the answer.

            Leave it up to LEO's on or off-duty and campus professors who are subject to CCW laws and additional firearms training including active shooter training.

            The problem is deeper than people who were not carrying guns to stop the shooter. If you look at all the school shootings, isolated as they were, you will see that the real problem was the shooter themselves. VA Tech involved someone with definite mental issues that screamed that he was a threat. Columbine involved a couple of kids that also had multiple indicators.

            This needs to be a proactive issue, not a reactive one.
            In noway do I condone "strapping" everyone on campus. I just dont agree with you in thinking the police trained or not and close by is the solution. The Va Tech incident was a prime example. Those guys are trained in active shooter but they couldn't get there to stop it for various reasons to include the nut chaining the doors I dont agree in the school taking the rights away of students with concealed permits or anyone just because it's a school setting. This is a college with adults. The only thing those students were that day were sheeps unable to protect themselves from a determined nut who I guess didn't read the "No guns on campus" sign. As for recognizing past shooters symptoms of how they "may" go crazy and shoot a bunch of people nobody can predict that but we can be prepared by first protecting ourselves rather than worrying about which nutbag is going to do what. I always get a kick when others even cops think they are the only ones responsible enough to protect themselves or say who is or isn't mature enough to do so. The administration is taking a hard look at their flawed policy of no concealed carry on campus regardless of those who still do not see how reckless it was to disarm citizens in this incident.
            "Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. The MARINES don't have that problem." ....Ronald Reagan

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            • #7
              I would rather have seen one immature armed student than one killer like we all saw.
              "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

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              • #8
                21 Year Olds Not Mature Enough?

                Originally posted by SgtScott31 View Post
                There are far more immature 21 yr olds than mature ones. Leave it up to LEO's on or off-duty and campus professors who are subject to CCW laws and additional firearms training including active shooter training.
                Sorry Sgt, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this matter. If under federal and state law 21 year olds have a right to own/possess/carry handguns (in many areas concealed) everywhere but a college campus, than I find it impossible to justify denying them the right to do so at the institution. Many of the younger (21 year old) officers in LE don't have the maturity of a 30+ year old, but I wouldn't dream of telling them they can't carry off duty until they're a little older. The same "Ivory Tower" attitude found among campus administrators that disallows 21 year old citizens the right to possess firearms on campus property will just as likely disallow you (a peace officer) the same right. Sure, many 21 year old students aren't mature enough that I'm comfortable with their right to own firearms, but most wouldn't choose to exercise that right anyway. The few who would (like most CCW permitees) are probably the ones I'd want to have armed if a situation occurred.

                I do a lot of recreational shooting outside of work. The vast majority of shooters I encounter are more familiar with and more responsible with firearms than the many of the LEOs I work with. I know it didn't used to be this way, but times change and the "new breed" seems to look at firearms as being only a small step above paintball guns.
                "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

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                • #9
                  Pulicords hit the nail on the head and I can't say it any better. So...ditto.
                  I miss you, Dave.
                  http://www.odmp.org/officer/20669-of...david-s.-moore

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by j706 View Post
                    I would rather have seen one immature armed student than one killer like we all saw.
                    ..you DId see one- he was the killer of those innocent students-what would you want ? a running gun battle? most officers don't always succesfully engage an armed and determined shooter-expect most citiznes( and we are NOT taling some handgun guru, a good old bro' who likes his plinking or an Ex SPECFOR guy who just happens to be in school for his "sociology degree-we're talking mainly beer drinking .girl chasers with out a care in the world)
                    Maybe out on the streets and alone at dark,but in some locations-leave it for the "trained and paid" professionals- nothing is fail proof.....
                    "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by pulicords View Post
                      Many of the younger (21 year old) officers in LE don't have the maturity of a 30+ year old, but I wouldn't dream of telling them they can't carry off duty until they're a little older.
                      bad analogy- for one - those "21" yr old- of which I was on when I started this job- HAVE someone in control of them and watching,training ,mentoring them.for many ,the college atmosphere is the FIRST time they are alone and have to make adult decisions.at the local colleges near my patrol are ,yoyu can't even get them to look their cars or not leave backpacks with ALL their vital info,in local stores they eat at..........

                      I do a lot of recreational shooting outside of work. The vast majority of shooters I encounter are more familiar with and more responsible with firearms than the many of the LEOs I work with. I know it didn't used to be this way, but times change and the "new breed" seems to look at firearms as being only a small step above paintball guns.
                      truly sad and i agree with you on this one- many of the rookie officers I work with ,neatly "tuck" their duty weapons away in the locker and go home "naked"-the reason? "its"( the gun) for work only- what do I need it for........?
                      "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'm pretty sure all of us were 21 once. I don't see a college campus as somewhere full of "adults." Although the legal drinking age is 21 and most states allow possession of a handgun at 21, the maturity level for alot of 21 yr olds is just not there for me to believe we should allow weapons in schools.

                        For one, there are alot of off-duty LEO's at schools now days; definitely more than there used to be.

                        Second, put yourself in the shoes of a 21 yr old, fresh out of his/her parent's home, new to the world, and think about their actions with a handgun against an active shooter. We, as LEO's, are trained and trained on how to handle such situations, and even after all the training, shootouts are very traumatic incidents where the good guy doesn't always win. Would they be able to bring themselves to fire at an individual with just CCW training in a close-quarter area with other students?

                        It also brings to mind an incident arising where a college kid either mistakenly pulls his weapon or does so when the situation does not dictate. Then you have everyone screaming that guns shouldn't be allowed.

                        I just think that colleges have been around for hundreds of years and have done fine without everyone strapped with a weapon. I definitely feel for the parents of those killed at VA Tech, but should this incident dictate the allowance of weapons on every campus across the country? I would just hate to see someone killed due to the fact that the law has changed.
                        I'm 10-8 like a shark in a sea of crime..

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SgtScott31 View Post
                          I'm pretty sure all of us were 21 once. I don't see a college campus as somewhere full of "adults." Although the legal drinking age is 21 and most states allow possession of a handgun at 21, the maturity level for alot of 21 yr olds is just not there for me to believe we should allow weapons in schools. I would just hate to see someone killed due to the fact that the law has changed.
                          Sgt- To the best of my knowledge, all states recognize that 21 year olds are adults, eligible to purchase alcoholic beverages, handguns, vote, enlist in the military or test to become a police. Where they are issued, I don't know of a single state or jurisdiction that requires a CCW permitee to be over the age of 21. Although you and others may not agree with this, it is the law and let's face it there are those who don't believe anyone (including police officers) should own firearms at all. Those jurisdictions issuing CCWs have training standards and permitees must meet them. Is the training as good as "ours"? I doubt it, but I'm sure there is also a huge difference in training standards across the US between LE agencies. What might be suitable for my agency could well be viewed as excessive and unnecessary by yours or vice versa. The bottom line is that in areas where CCWs are issued, the fears expressed by anti-2nd Amendment types about "Gunfights on Every Corner!" were never justified. Citizens who showed the interest and maturity to go through the permit process have only in the most rare incident had them revoked. Those among the general population who chose to carry unlawfully are the ones to worry about.

                          DOA- Although I usually agree with you on issues, this time I don't. The training, mentoring, monitoring, etc... of 21 year old police officers isn't 24-7 and it applies to all police officers regardless of age. That said, a CCW holder carries for the limited purpose of defense. His/her training deals with that narrow issue and defensive use of a firearm can occur anywhere-home, work, shopping or school. As a police officer, I'd no sooner leave my gun at home when I attended college, as going to the market for eggs. I wouldn't expect an adult issued a CCW permit to do less.
                          "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

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                          • #14
                            That said, a CCW holder carries for the limited purpose of defense. His/her training deals with that narrow issue and defensive use of a firearm can occur anywhere-home, work, shopping or school.
                            The limited purpose of defense is exactly what a CCW holder is trained for. Now if you have a bunch of CCW holders allowed to carry who hear about an on-campus shooting, are they going to call 911 and wait where they are in a defensive position or seek out the shooter? My bet is that they attempt to seek out the shooter and get themselves either killed by the shooter or by law enforcement who mistake them for the suspect.

                            Most LEO's I know keep readily identifiable credentials on them in case an incident such as this arises. Most also go through active shooter classes and other training that help prepare for such an incident. Normally LEO's attending classes on campuses work in the area around the campus or, are at least familiar with the agency who does.

                            Although the legal age to become a police officer is 21, I rarely find LE agencies who hire at that age. Just something to think about.
                            I'm 10-8 like a shark in a sea of crime..

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              curious- in states where CCW is authorized,are the crimes involving weapons violence carrying higher or more serious penalties? here in CA. illegal weapons possession,i.e. carrying concealed hangun (12025 a PC,12031a PC) usually gets slap on the rest, often a bogus lite probation and fine,even brandishing (417 PC) gets less than a few days in county jail.I find it sadder that in these days of people" complaining of lack of police " that everyone wants the conservative view of LESS gov't and less taxes,but agree that citizens should arm themselves out in the streets.even worse- we're seeing more and more cops gunned down by "citizens" with little or no criminal records,and in small towns and suburbs that don't traditionally have that type of crime.what are we,as L.E. supposed to do? now talk of relatively immature people and less regulated people carrying firearms? everyone keeps talking about the "law"-but since when is every law adhered to to the letter?and why ,as a modern society do we need to enter into an ARMS race in our communities.

                              2nd amendment interpretation is slippery-to me its the right of every citizen to protect his or her property with a firearm today ,as the old standards no longer apply (Where's the wild frontier??? we have modern L.E. in almost all parts of the nation, and we have a STANDING ARMY and its subsidiary Nat'l Guard and reserve force,so wheres the need of a "militia"? and unlike England ,citizens can possess firearms with relatively little limitations.).Also the idea was that a armed citizenry could stop a malicious gov't from doing whatever it wanted - see the "Stamp act" and "quartering Act" which predated the american revolution.This also created the emphasis for writing the 4th amendment(*public apathy being what it is ,they'd vote the Devil himself into office if he made the right promises/lies) .And as many folks have seemingly forgotten ,alot of states banned public carrying of firearms to LIMIT the amount of gun violence in towns and cities,not to promote some secret and insidious plan to subvert the constitution.

                              We live in a nation currently where nearly 1/3 americans in this country are functionally "illiterate", the highest percentage of people incarcerated in the "Free" western world,our schools failing ,community structure weakening,I think we have BIGGER problems than arguing that folks need guns to go to the grocery store or walk down the street.Having grown up in so.central L.A. I saw plenty of gun violence and death before I was 17,and much of it was from legal gun owners just as it was from illegal gun owners.I'd rather joe or jane citizen had there trusty shotgun at home by the door ,or that the local liqour store owner had his on his side in the shop, but I would want to be the only person riding around in the street on a daily basis with the authority to carry and use it there-police officers are a small part of the community and can be controlled and regulated much better.

                              Last nite while scanning the city wide frequency,I heard a call go out of a "man with a gun" on UCLA's campus,which garnered the response of several West L.A. div LAPD units and the UCLA PD-even if that person were a CCW holder,how many people do you think cops here are going to "nicely" walk up on and ask? ( he or she is almost always going to get proned out) and Goodness knows I'd hate to respond to the 3 colleges (LMU, Parson Art institute,Southwestern School of Law) and shoot someone who has a gun in his or her hands,only to find out they were legally authorized to have it and weren't the "problem".This is not the easy or correct solution for this issue.Even in states were CCW is allowed ,they still don't authorize carrying on campus.( even in those states violent crimes still continue to happen as frequently as they do in non CCW states )Certain institutions,whether we like it or not,should not totally subject to the "whims" of the people-they are schools,churches,and courts of law,and should be respected for that.
                              Last edited by DOAcop38; 05-19-2007, 12:21 AM.
                              "we're americans ! We don't quit because we're wrong, we just keep doing it wrong UNTIL it turns out Right"...

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