Shooter opens up in mall, return fire?

[Nightshift va]

Redbird at no time did I bring up thwarting a armed person while in the presence of my kid or my wife. I was saying if my wife and kid were in danger and an armed citizen saved them id shake his hand. Sabre what are you talking about? Any number of shooters? where did that come from. The thread started talking about one nut case killing many at random. Yes you better take cover and you better as a Police Officer take out that active shooter if you have the ability. Having your family with you I guess you would have to do like that off duty cop did in the news lately and tell them to lay on the floor and get out as soon as possible then go to the threat, luckily for him he was joined by other officers to assist and I get your point about the not knowing really the whole threat, but to run out..nahh..I guess I still have too much Marine Corps in me even though Im older and fatter for that. If I run out itll be to go to the car to get more ordinance.

[LeanG]

First of all, in the heat of the moment, (which we've all been a part of) no one is thinking "I hope I don't get sued". Regardless when you step out of your house to start the day, expect to get sued. This is America. I spilled hot coffee on my shirt and I got burned. I'm suing Mc Donalds. Secondly, if I have my family with me and I'm armed, family comes first. When I took the oath, I don't remember agreeing to sacrifice my family to preserve life and property. If I were alone and I had a clear shot, I would definately take it, but remember that when you're off duty in a confusing setting such as a crowded mall, if you take your gun out: All of a sudden you are the aggressor and if a uniformed officer appears when you're taking your gun out in your blue jeans and your white tee...

[j706]

About a year back we had somebody pull a semi-auto rifle out and start shooting people in a mall here. As far as I know there wasn't a single armed security guard, police officer or private citizen on the scene that returned fire. The guy shot 6 people and finally was taken into custody after 3 1/2 hours of negotiating.

My question is would I be in full right to return fire on a guy like that if I were wandering the mall when he opened fire? I would like to think my actions would be appreciated if I made two well placed shots and he was dead by the time police arrived. On the other hand I worry about being sued by the family, or even possibly being arrested for dropping him. Another scary thought is my rounds miss their target and end up hitting the wrong person.

One more question. Why do we negotiate with these wack jobs? If they are crazy enough to do this once they surely have it in them to do it again - and putting them in a mental facility or jail for life doesn't do the public any good. Why not get a trained officer set up for a single well placed shot and solve the problem?

I could not even consider the thought of being sued with people getting shot around me and I had a weapon. Sue me anytime for stopping or attempting to stop a active shooter. Ask your self this: How would you feel for the rest of your life if you could have stopped something like that and did not. Its a no brainer. Hopefully you will never be confronted with such, however these days you never know. Take em out!!

[Sabre]

Wow an Active Shooter and you would say Get Out of There. I think I could find somewhere to stash my family and go do my job!

You would go up against an unknown number of shooters, who may be armed with rifles / shotguns, who are likely prepared with a lot of ammunition (maybe even body armor??) while you are 1) alone, 2) out of uniform,3) un-armored, and 4) armed only with an off-duty pistol???

When the bad guys have that kind of advantage, I'm not going anywhere but out.

If I see one guy with a pistol, maybe things would be different. Still, if I'm with the family, priority #1 is getting them out.

[redbird07]

Wow an Active Shooter and you would say Get Out of There. I think I could find somewhere to stash my family and go do my job!

Are you prepared to have your wife and kids see you killed in front of them. Point is, when you are off duty, with your family/friends whatever, you have different responsibilities. Bad things happen all the time, Cops dont see half of them. Why jeapordize (sp) your families life or your own life while your off duty and without a vest. I heard of an off duty officer who witnessed an armed robbery go down. The officer was with his young daughter. He identified himself to the perp who proceeded to shoot the officers daughter and kill her. He was later captured. They asked him why he shot the officers daughter. He replied that he knew the officer would be of no use in apprehending him due to the fact that he would be aiding his daughter.

Just something to think about.

[Nightshift va]

Civil Liability is unfortunately always present in our world as well as a civilians world. Id say if the killer was already killing people in your prescence why not save yourself and others if you have the means to do so. As Police on or off duty I dont have to flee the scene. In a civilians case the liability question may arise as to wheter or not you had a chance to flee or if you were immediately in danger. Personally I think the opposite and would hope as an armed person with the ability you or anyone in that position would save lives by shooting the thug. If my wife and kid were in the mall and I was not I would shake your hand if you took them out.

[Kieth M.]

Let's go to your "kill an innocent bystander" scenario. Here, in CA, the Felony Murder Rule would place criminal responsibility on the original active shooter, you were trying to stop when you shot the innocent. Civil responsibility is another matter, entirely.

Homeowners/personal liability insurance might be your friend in the aftermath, but not for long in my opinion. It would also depend on the city/county where the civil trial would be conducted...rich, affluent, and liberal area of a blue state....you're screwed. Red state, working class, one of two family vehicles is a pick-up truck country....the jury will likely find in your favor, buy you lunch, and present you with a box of practice ammo and some targets.

[ant_kem]

Im not a LEO yet, but I had a question. Im still not really clear on the CCW part. Especially since I carry mine almost every where, except the place I cannot buy law. Living in the Orlando area with the murder rate on the rise. Where can I find the laws concerning something like that? If someone opens fire somewhere?

[jwise]

Your question brings up the need for major reform in most of the states in this country. We need laws that put the criminal culpabilities and civil liabilities on those who are perpetrating the crimes, not on those trying to stop them.

Texas just passed a law that goes into effect in Sept that will place civil liability back on the felon. We already have the criminal part.

If I were in this situation, I would hand my wife my BUG and tell her to take the kids and get to the car and call 9-1-1. Once they are gone, I'd go to work.

[jerrymaccauley]

I s'pose it depends. If you're there with the wife and kids, getting them out would probably be priority #1.

On that I agree.

[TPRX899]

Wow an Active Shooter and you would say Get Out of There. I think I could find somewhere to stash my family and go do my job!

[UH60fixer]

Are you sure you're not talking about the Cleveland area? Recently we had 2 OISs one was 2 officers that fired on a kid that got out of his car and pointed a gun at the officers. He died of a self inflicted GSW. The community is apparently outraged that the perfect angel would be harrassed by the big mean police men. The other one involved a off duty officer shooting a kid who tried to drive his car into him (allegedly), few more fuzzy areas with that one, so I won't comment.

Nope, far from Cleveland. I guess this must be spreading like a disease. I'm not advocating just shooting everyone, but if you honestly believe it is your life or theirs and there is no alternative, what are you supposed to do? Say "Mr High-on-PCP 260 lb linebacker man with the rifle, please don't shoot me"?

[Sabre]

I s'pose it depends. If you're there with the wife and kids, getting them out would probably be priority #1.

[jerrymaccauley]

Plan A = get the eff out of there

Plan B = shoot, if plan A fails

The laws in Michigan, by the way, shield citizens from civil liability if they are reacting to the actions of a person engaged in criminal activity

Sabre, just so I understand you. If some people are being murdered, your suggestion is to run away? Whether you are a police officer or not, the fact that you are armed would, maybe only to me, obligate you to try to save a life. Please tell me that you don't mean for off duty officers to flee.

[JohnnyZ]

Could I tack a question on?

Do y'all think that location matters? I mean, the metro area nearest my home tends to be very...um...(can't think of the right way to put this) "anti-justified shooting" It seems like every time we have an OIS, or deploy the spikes and the criminal wrecks, etc, that the internal investigations will clear the officer, but then 'community outrage' pops up, and the officer(s) lives/careers are effectively destroyed-once even the mayor publicly condemned the officers involved and there was significant restructuring (read: firing) in the PD.

Is it like that everywhere? or just in the area I lived? When I was in VA there weren't any of these incidents in my area so I don't really have anything to compare to.

Are you sure you're not talking about the Cleveland area? Recently we had 2 OISs one was 2 officers that fired on a kid that got out of his car and pointed a gun at the officers. He died of a self inflicted GSW. The community is apparently outraged that the perfect angel would be harrassed by the big mean police men. The other one involved a off duty officer shooting a kid who tried to drive his car into him (allegedly), few more fuzzy areas with that one, so I won't comment.