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  • Thoughts on the UCLA incident...

    If this is a repost, please point me to it. I searched a few forums and i cant find it.

    I really want to hear LE views on this as I am sick and tired of peoples bleeding hearts for this guy...

    Here is a short video

    Cop uses stun gun on student who won't show ID


    LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- A UCLA police officer shocked a student with a stun gun at a campus library after he refused repeated requests to show student identification and wouldn't leave, police said.

    The student, Mostafa Tabatabainejad, was shocked Tuesday at about 11 p.m. as police did a routine check of student IDs at the University of California, Los Angeles Powell Library computer lab.

    "This is a long-standing library policy to ensure the safety of students during the late-night hours," said UCLA Police Department spokeswoman Nancy Greenstein.

    She said police tried to escort Tabatabainejad, 23, out of the library after he refused to provide identification. Tabatabainejad instead encouraged others at the library to join his resistance, and when a crowd began to gather, police used the stun gun on him, Greenstein said.

    Tabatabainejad was arrested for resisting and obstructing a police officer and later released on his own recognizance. He declined to comment Wednesday night.

    The incident was recorded on another student's camera phone and showed Tabatabainejad screaming while on the floor of the computer lab.

    It was the third incident in a month in which police behavior in the city was criticized after amateur video surfaced. The other two involved the Los Angeles Police Department.

    Acting Chancellor Norman Abrams promised an investigation.

    "The safety of our campus community is of paramount importance to me," Abrams said in a statement.

    Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.



    These are some quotes from a friend of his who was in the library at the time.

    Okay kids, I'm here!

    Yes, I was indeed at Powell Library at approximately 11:30 on Tuesday night, and yes I did see the entire event as it went down.

    Let me start off by saying that the guy DEFINITELY was asking to get his *** kicked. He was being extremely rude with the campus patrol guys (who are college students...this was before the real UCPD got called in). He was not complying with their requests to leave the premises, and he was definitely itching for a fight. I actually know the guy and a few of his friends, and I can tell you that he's the kind of guy that loves to make trouble.

    Just as a little backstory, one of the quotes the guy has on his facebook (which he now has taken down) was "I like to find the most difficult solutions to the simplest of problems".

    He definitely taunted the UCPD into behaving the way they did with him.

    Edit: Many people have questioned the fact that the cops tazed him and asked him to get up, and tazed him again even though he shouldn't have the capability to get up. This was not the case here to my knowledge, because the cops were using their "drive-stun" method which administers less of a jolt than normal. I believe this because anyone who can ramble on about this being the patriot act and yell at the top of his lungs should have the capability of getting up.

    Also I'd like to add that our local campus patrol officers (the college guys with the night jobs) and the UCPD have a really good track record, and my experiences with them have been great. In the food chain of good cop/bad cop, these guys are definitely on the "letting @!#$ slide" part.

    I have class with one campus officers who was there last night, so I'm going to ask him what his take was on it and what they were discussing while this was going down.

    By the way if you have any questions, feel free to ask.

    I'm a recent UCLA alum, and I can definitely say that the CSO's (Community Service Officers) that are students are VERY lenient and usually very good (minus the couple @!#$s that take the job just to hand out write-ups and such). Also, my dealings with the UCPD have always been much better than other police (which is saying something since they are an actual police office with the same jurisdication as any other California police department; they aren't just stuck within the school). It looked in the video like the towards the end the force was a little bit out of whack, but I'm sure the guy had to be a real ******** to get to there. Anyways, who is gonna start a protest over having to leave the library at 11 pm?



    How do you guys feel? And please could you include some info on laws or codes about this...
    Im just Here to Learn...

  • #2
    Yep, its a repost, but I'll indulge you. I just watched the six minute video and thought it was pretty entertaining. Some people, especially suburban kids, seem to think that the police shouldn't touch you. Guess what. We can. He was told to leave and refused, here thats criminal trespass and you get arrested. If I tell you to stand up, I wouldn't be saying it 114 times. Twice...then I stand you up. I thought they were pretty professional throughout the whole thing.
    For the cops out there: You are an adult. If you want to write someone, write them. If you don't want to write someone, then don't write them.

    "Jeff, you are the best cop on this board"-Anonymous Post

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by jeffIL
      Yep, its a repost, but I'll indulge you. I just watched the six minute video and thought it was pretty entertaining. Some people, especially suburban kids, seem to think that the police shouldn't touch you. Guess what. We can. He was told to leave and refused, here thats criminal trespass and you get arrested. If I tell you to stand up, I wouldn't be saying it 114 times. Twice...then I stand you up. I thought they were pretty professional throughout the whole thing.
      Thats how i feel and i love to laugh at people who think like that. I was arrested once(well almost) and even though I knew it was complete bull****, i still treated the officer with respect. I didn't want to give him a reason to taze me...And guess what, he treated me with respect, and it all ended up being cleared up before we left the scene...

      Could you point me to the other thread?
      Im just Here to Learn...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Grim
        How do you guys feel? And please could you include some info on laws or codes about this...
        Hi Grim:

        If I understand the story correctly:

        1. As a condition of use, persons using the library must produce the university ID upon request, to confirm that they are authorized to be there and are not trespassing.

        2. When asked, the individual was uncooperative and refused to produce a university ID. This created reasonable cause to believe he was trespassing, in violation of state law, and made him subject to arrest.

        3. Rather than arrest him, the officers first asked the subject to leave. He refused. This reinforced the belief that he was trespassing and subject to arrest.

        4. The officers then arrested him and repeatedly asked him to get up. He repeatedly refused to comply. This constitutes resisting/obstructing an officer, an additional crime.

        California Penal Code Section 836.1 states that a peace officer may arrest a person without a warrant if the officer has probable cause to believe that the person to be arrested has committed a public offense in the officer's presence.

        Penal Code Section 834a states that if a person has knowledge, or by the exercise of reasonable care, should have knowledge, that he is being arrested by a peace officer, it is the duty of such person to refrain from resisting such arrest.

        Penal Code Section 148 states that it is illegal to willfully resist, delay, or obstructs any public officer or peace officer in the discharge or attempt to discharge their duties.

        Penal Code Section 835A states that a peace officer may use reasonable force to effect an arrest, to prevent escape or to overcome resistance. It also states that an officer need not retreat or desist from his efforts by reason of the resistance or threatened resistance of the person being arrested; nor shall such officer be deemed an aggressor or lose his right to self-defense by the use of reasonable force to effect the arrest or to prevent escape or to overcome resistance.

        Now, force comes in many levels. It starts at the bottom with physical presence and verbal commands. From there it escalates to a number of levels including control holds and restraints, chemical agents/tazers, physical blows/altercations, deadly force, etc., to name a few

        Based on the video, the officers started with one of the lowest levels of force available - physical presence and verbal commands. When that didn't work, escalating to a greater level was justified. But again, what level do you go to? Clearly deadly force, baton strikes and punches would have been excessive at this point. Bending over to pick him up or apply a control hold would make the officers vulnerable to attack by an openly antagonistic and uncooperative suspect. In turn, this would create an unreasonable risk of injury to the officers, the suspect and any bystanders who could be hurt in a resulting altercation. In addition, wrestling around with the suspect would have put the officers at a clear disadvantage and made them vulnerable to additional attacks by a growing crowd that like the suspect, was openly antagonistic towards them. With this in mind, bending over and grabbing him up is definitely out. That leave the option of chemical agents/tazers. The officers could have pepper sprayed him but doing so might have contaminated the library and left it unusable for others.

        That left the tazer, which was utilized only after many request to comply were refused. After the initial application, it was only used again after many more requests to comply were refused. Based on the suspect's ability to loudly and articulately enunciate his objections in the matter after each tazing, it was clear that his condition was such that he could have voluntarily gotten up and submitted to the arrest, but simply refused to do so.

        Was it ugly? You bet. Was it legal? I didn't see any conduct on the part of the officers that was outside the law or constituted misconduct. Given the circumstances, I'm not sure I would have handled it much differently.
        Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by L-1
          Hi Grim:

          If I understand the story correctly:
          L-1, You apparently have a much better than average understanding of the story. Well said.
          “This life’s hard, but it’s harder if you’re stupid.”

          George V. Higgins--The Friends of Eddie Coyle

          Comment


          • #6
            What's really troubling about this is that the Muslim Students Association had claimed that they don't "feel safe" from the police because of this incident. In response, the University's acting Chancellor announced that he had chosen an attorney and founder of a local nonprofit dedicated to police reform, to lead an independent investigation into the matter, citing the need for outside review. In addition, the person chosen to investigate has stated he intends to make his review transparent (i.e., public).

            All of this violates California's Peace Officer Bill of Rights, which mandates that police personnel investigations are confidential and can only be conducted by the employing department rather than an outside body.

            The fact that UCLA PD would abdicate its responsibility to investigation allegations of misconduct against their own personnel, allow a police reform attorney to do it on their behalf and allow him to publish his findings, suggests the university is throwing its officers and their rights to the wolves, all in the name of political correctness.

            Tennsix - you work in this environment. What's your take on what the university is doing?
            Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

            Comment


            • #7
              So, is it a PORAC lawyer doing the investigation?
              "Respect for religion must be reestablished. Public debt should be reduced. The arrogance of public officials must be curtailed. Assistance to foreign lands must be stopped or we shall bankrupt ourselves. The people should be forced to work and not depend on government for subsistence." - Cicero, 60 B.C.

              For California police academy notes go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CABasicPolice/

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by L-1
                What's really troubling about this is that the Muslim Students Association had claimed that they don't "feel safe" from the police because of this incident. In response, the University's acting Chancellor announced that he had chosen an attorney and founder of a local nonprofit dedicated to police reform, to lead an independent investigation into the matter, citing the need for outside review. In addition, the person chosen to investigate has stated he intends to make his review transparent (i.e., public).

                All of this violates California's Peace Officer Bill of Rights, which mandates that police personnel investigations are confidential and can only be conducted by the employing department rather than an outside body.

                The fact that UCLA PD would abdicate its responsibility to investigation allegations of misconduct against their own personnel, allow a police reform attorney to do it on their behalf and allow him to publish his findings, suggests the university is throwing its officers and their rights to the wolves, all in the name of political correctness.

                Tennsix - you work in this environment. What's your take on what the university is doing?
                A university not supporting the rights of the officers? Shocking! Personally, I'd expect that kind of response from a university...especially UCLA, considered one of the most liberal, anti-establishment universities in the nation.

                Now, of course, the media is all over this like sharks at feeding time. Did anybody see the NBC "report" on this? Naturally, it was a Keith Olbermann liberal-stanted hatchet-job where he interviewed a UCLA student reporter for the "inside scoop." At one point, he asks her if the suspect was unwilling to stand up and walk away and she makes the statement that he may have been unable to because of the use of the taser, saying that "somebody told me that the taser can incapacitate for as much as 15 minutes." "Somebody" told her?!?! That, ladies and gentlemen, is HIGH QUALITY REPORTING! Not to mention that it's total BS, of course...

                Any chance we can get Mexico to annex California? We'll sell cheap!
                "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
                -Friedrich Nietzsche

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by L-1
                  Hi Grim:

                  If I understand the story correctly:

                  1. As a condition of use, persons using the library must produce the university ID upon request, to confirm that they are authorized to be there and are not trespassing.

                  2. When asked, the individual was uncooperative and refused to produce a university ID. This created reasonable cause to believe he was trespassing, in violation of state law, and made him subject to arrest.

                  3. Rather than arrest him, the officers first asked the subject to leave. He refused. This reinforced the belief that he was trespassing and subject to arrest.

                  4. The officers then arrested him and repeatedly asked him to get up. He repeatedly refused to comply. This constitutes resisting/obstructing an officer, an additional crime.

                  California Penal Code Section 836.1 states that a peace officer may arrest a person without a warrant if the officer has probable cause to believe that the person to be arrested has committed a public offense in the officer's presence.

                  Penal Code Section 834a states that if a person has knowledge, or by the exercise of reasonable care, should have knowledge, that he is being arrested by a peace officer, it is the duty of such person to refrain from resisting such arrest.

                  Penal Code Section 148 states that it is illegal to willfully resist, delay, or obstructs any public officer or peace officer in the discharge or attempt to discharge their duties.

                  Penal Code Section 835A states that a peace officer may use reasonable force to effect an arrest, to prevent escape or to overcome resistance. It also states that an officer need not retreat or desist from his efforts by reason of the resistance or threatened resistance of the person being arrested; nor shall such officer be deemed an aggressor or lose his right to self-defense by the use of reasonable force to effect the arrest or to prevent escape or to overcome resistance.

                  Now, force comes in many levels. It starts at the bottom with physical presence and verbal commands. From there it escalates to a number of levels including control holds and restraints, chemical agents/tazers, physical blows/altercations, deadly force, etc., to name a few

                  Based on the video, the officers started with one of the lowest levels of force available - physical presence and verbal commands. When that didn't work, escalating to a greater level was justified. But again, what level do you go to? Clearly deadly force, baton strikes and punches would have been excessive at this point. Bending over to pick him up or apply a control hold would make the officers vulnerable to attack by an openly antagonistic and uncooperative suspect. In turn, this would create an unreasonable risk of injury to the officers, the suspect and any bystanders who could be hurt in a resulting altercation. In addition, wrestling around with the suspect would have put the officers at a clear disadvantage and made them vulnerable to additional attacks by a growing crowd that like the suspect, was openly antagonistic towards them. With this in mind, bending over and grabbing him up is definitely out. That leave the option of chemical agents/tazers. The officers could have pepper sprayed him but doing so might have contaminated the library and left it unusable for others.

                  That left the tazer, which was utilized only after many request to comply were refused. After the initial application, it was only used again after many more requests to comply were refused. Based on the suspect's ability to loudly and articulately enunciate his objections in the matter after each tazing, it was clear that his condition was such that he could have voluntarily gotten up and submitted to the arrest, but simply refused to do so.

                  Was it ugly? You bet. Was it legal? I didn't see any conduct on the part of the officers that was outside the law or constituted misconduct. Given the circumstances, I'm not sure I would have handled it much differently.

                  Thank you.

                  1-4 is what i got out of the story as well. Its Me Vs. Everyone on some other forums and i figured it would be nice to see what other LE thoughts were.
                  Im just Here to Learn...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hopefully the university will see the light and realize that requiring ID to remain in the library larte at night violates the rights of every savage mugger and rapist. Doing so will also allow the student security patrol to use the library for their own studies rather than looking out for the rest of the student body's safety. And the sworn officers can find a nice quiet place to coop.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by pkagel
                      So, is it a PORAC lawyer doing the investigation?
                      Surely you jest! From AP:

                      A few hours after the rally, acting Chancellor Norman Abrams announced he had chosen Merrick Bobb, the founder of a local nonprofit dedicated to police reform, to lead an independent investigation.

                      Bobb served as staff attorney for the Christopher Commission, which was formed to examine allegations of excessive force in the Los Angeles Police Department after the King beating in the early '90s.

                      "I have complete respect for, and confidence in, (campus police)," Abrams said. "But there are times when it is helpful to turn to an outside review as well."

                      University Police Chief Karl Ross said he had recommended the independent probe.

                      "While I am confident of our ability to perform a fair and thorough investigation, I am also cognizant of the need for a transparent review," Ross said.
                      Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'm sure all his officers are happy that Ross has their back.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I wonder if any other students were asked for their identification, or if this guy was singled out because he had a mid-eastern appearance? Just curious if he was the only one questioned and the only one who refused to cooperate.
                          Retired

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by retired
                            I wonder if any other students were asked for their identification, or if this guy was singled out because he had a mid-eastern appearance? Just curious if he was the only one questioned and the only one who refused to cooperate.
                            Another student of mid-east decent was interviewed on the news here and he said that it is a nightly occurance that nearly everyone gets carded at around 11PM. He said it was for their safety and that if the "victim" was saying it was because of his race he was not being truthful.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Big stink over nothing. The kid had numerous chances to comply. He didn't. Since I work on a campus, I'll just say that there are a subset of students that think a university is a carry-over of the whole public school environment.

                              They believe they are still wrapped in the protective womb of that system. They don't understand that they are judged differently; that is, they are now adults. That same subset of individuals believe "civil disobedience" is a legal activity.

                              It's always a shock (no pun intended) when they find it isn't true.
                              "Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince" - Unknown Author
                              ______________________________________________

                              "That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves." - Thomas Jefferson
                              ______________________________________________

                              “There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.” - John Adams

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