Sub-Culture, professional courtesy-> Not being a part of it

[Slowing-Dee]

I've been thinking for the last 24 hours about something my brother said to me when he heard that I wouldn't let my friends drink if they planned on driving home Friday night. He told me not to be policing my friends because if I keep doing that they're going to think I'm a loser and they won't hang out with me anymore. Then he told me that these little things don't matter because once I become a police officer I'm going to find out that police take care of their friends and family members.

I know that there's a police sub-culture. I know about the "us versus them" attitude that developes with policing. I know about professional courtesy and that cops don't write other cops or their family members.

But what I also know is that I wasn't brought up that way and that's not how I think. I'm not saying that if I were a cop that I would be writing up every cop that I stopped (I'm a big believer in discretion and if I would let Joe Public off with a warning, they'd get one too), but I don't believe in showing a badge and getting off with a warning. I don't believe in entitlements or being above the law. I know people make mistakes sometimes, but I don't think I could live with myself if I kept letting someone off with a warning for the same "mistake" multiple times because they think that nothing will happen if they get caught so they end up killing someone later on down the road.

At times I feel like everything I've been taught by my parents about morals and what's ethically right is not always the right thing depending on the circumstances and what I've been learning in school about ethics in policing are just being taught for the sake of saying they taught them, but they're not actually followed. I don't want to be a part of that.

Would my attitude need an adjustment in order for me to become a police officer in the real world, or are there police out there who share my same thoughts and are able to have successful careers without being excessively ostracized and looked down upon, or should I start looking for another career?

I feel really lost and confused right now about how I should be thinking.

[t150vsuptpr]

I've been thinking for the last 24 hours about something my brother said to me when he heard that I wouldn't let my friends drink if they planned on driving home Friday night. He told me not to be policing my friends because if I keep doing that they're going to think I'm a loser and they won't hang out with me anymore.

If they are leaving your place, I don't blame you. Suit your conscience, if they don't like it and shun you for it .... how good of friend were they anyway? You'll have enough work developing your own charachter, you can't worry about developing theirs too.

Then he told me that these little things don't matter because once I become a police officer I'm going to find out that police take care of their friends and family members.

I know that there's a police sub-culture. I know about the "us versus them" attitude that developes with policing. I know about professional courtesy and that cops don't write other cops or their family members.

You will develope a whole new group of friends, but you don't have to forget your old friends .... and you should follow your own conscience and not be swayed by those few who preach "PC to all". It's not ethical and they know it's not, but they want to turn a blind eye to that aspect as it makes certain decisions and encounters "more difficult" for them. Once in law enforcement (if you get in), pay attention to those around you and you'll see soon enough that that attitude is not nearly so prevelant as the vocal minority would have you believe. Most officers drive and conduct their lives within the confines of the law they enforce, it's easier on the conscience and it's the best way of showing your respect for your community, it's laws, and your brother officers working.

But what I also know is that I wasn't brought up that way and that's not how I think. I'm not saying that if I were a cop that I would be writing up every cop that I stopped (I'm a big believer in discretion and if I would let Joe Public off with a warning, they'd get one too), but I don't believe in showing a badge and getting off with a warning. I don't believe in entitlements or being above the law. I know people make mistakes sometimes, but I don't think I could live with myself if I kept letting someone off with a warning for the same "mistake" multiple times because they think that nothing will happen if they get caught so they end up killing someone later on down the road.

You already have a conscience I see.

At times I feel like everything I've been taught by my parents about morals and what's ethically right is not always the right thing depending on the circumstances and what I've been learning in school about ethics in policing are just being taught for the sake of saying they taught them, but they're not actually followed. I don't want to be a part of that.

Would my attitude need an adjustment in order for me to become a police officer in the real world, or are there police out there who share my same thoughts and are able to have successful careers without being excessively ostracized and looked down upon, or should I start looking for another career?

I feel really lost and confused right now about how I should be thinking.

You'll be OK. Just be resolute, follow your own conscience, stay within the law, be fair in your dealings, keep promises, never make an enforcement encounter personal or take anything they say personal ...
... and if ever in a fight, never fight fair as loosing is simply not an option.

[Slowing-Dee]

Thanks. Your posts always seem so helpful and non-insulting and smart-***.

You already have a conscience I see.

Yes, and it's driving me nuts. It's worse than Jiminy Cricket. Every time I do something wrong my conscience causes me to ponder over it repeatedly and won't let it go until I find a way to set it right.

[cst.sb]

Dee,

The PC thing will work itself out.

We have huge discretionary ablility that the public benefits the most from. So, if you cut a fellow cop a break, I'll guarantee you, that you've cut the public a break hundreds of times before.

I pull a lot of vehicles over and only one time in the last three years have I stopped one cop, and he was on duty on a surveilance team following a target. (So, no discretion needed, as he was in the lawful execution of his duty)

Would I have felt bad about giving him a break if he wasn't working? Nope, not one bit. That 4 day block I probably gave 10+ verbal warnings alone.

Remember, not everyone gets arrested, and not everyone gets ticketed. So, a little PC is not a big deal.

But you'll figure it out when the time comes.

[Slowing-Dee]

Dee,

The PC thing will work itself out.

We have huge discretionary ablility that the public benefits the most from. So, if you cut a fellow cop a break, I'll guarantee you, that you've cut the public a break hundreds of times before.

I pull a lot of vehicles over and only one time in the last three years have I stopped one cop, and he was on duty on a surveilance team following a target. (So, no discretion needed, as he was in the lawful execution of his duty)

Would I have felt bad about giving him a break if he wasn't working? Nope, not one bit. That 4 day block I probably gave 10+ verbal warnings alone.

Remember, not everyone gets arrested, and not everyone gets ticketed. So, a little PC is not a big deal.

But you'll figure it out when the time comes.

I know that a little bit of PC isn't that big of a deal, but I'm not okay with people who think it's okay to give PC to someone who's driving while impaired or something bigger like that. According to my CC giving someone a discharge for such an act is not an option, so I don't see how I could let myself do that on a basis of PC.

[hemicop]

Dee, you're on the right track & it'll all work itself out. I wish my bosses had your ethics.

[t150vsuptpr]

Thanks. Your posts always seem so helpful and non-insulting and smart-***.

Thanks.

Yes, and it's driving me nuts. It's worse than Jiminy Cricket. Every time I do something wrong my conscience causes me to ponder over it repeatedly and won't let it go until I find a way to set it right.

It's not all that hard to work through, as others have said or will say, you will give some warnings to public from time to time as well as officers. There'll be other times when because of circumstances, danger, stupiduty, sense of fairness, and etc ... you'll probably just write. You'll make a few decisions that will bother you at first (but as long as within the law, they aren't wrong ... it's just part of finding your buttons), and after a bit you'll get a handle on it and make the right ones that sit well with your conscience.

I have developed several rules I go by on all my stops which I refer to when deciding on warnings, summonses, arrests. I didn't always have them, making mistakes in either being too lenient or too harsh and seeing how it affected my conscience lead me to where I am today and these rules of mine. It works well for me and takes into account all the different facets of a stop.

You'll develope a system that helps you as well.

[detsarg]

...my brother said to me when he heard that I wouldn't let my friends drink if they planned on driving home Friday night. He told me not to be policing my friends because if I keep doing that they're going to think I'm a loser and they won't hang out with me anymore. Then he told me that these little things don't matter....

Respectfully, your brother obviously lacks the ability to speak intelligently about the dangers of drunk driving. I wonder how he would feel if the drunk driver that left your house killed another member of your family. Of course, by his logic, at least the drunk does not think you are a loser and he will still hang out with you. (This is the part where I shake my head in disgust at your brother's mentality)

Next, when I was a patrol officer I never wrote another cop a ticket. Some of it was PC but most was because none of the ones I pulled over ever gave me an attitude. The one and only time I wrote a firefighter a ticket was when he showed me his badge and told me I couldn’t write him. He was incorrect.

Finally, if I were still in patrol, or if it would have happened when I was there, I would have NO PROBLEM and NO GUILT about arresting a cop, firefighter or anyone else for DUI.

Drunk driving has touched my family in a very negative way and I have no compunction about enforcing that law. In my opinion, DUI should always be a felony. What other misdemeanor causes so much death and injury?

If you drive drunk and I catch you, you go to jail. If you are a cop then you will probably lose your job. I WILL SLEEP WELL!!!

[cst.sb]

I know that a little bit of PC isn't that big of a deal, but I'm not okay with people who think it's okay to give PC to someone who's driving while impaired or something bigger like that. According to my CC giving someone a discharge for such an act is not an option, so I don't see how I could let myself do that on a basis of PC.

I think you need to have a longer talk to with him about it. I'm sure that there is more to the story.

I'll pm you later with my thoughts.

[Slowing-Dee]

I think you need to have a longer talk to with him about it. I'm sure that there is more to the story.

I'll pm you later with my thoughts.

Who's him? Are you referring to my CC? If so, CC = Criminal Code. I have a student edition with an offence grid at the back that shows sentence options and illegal sentences for all the different offences within the CC.

[cst.sb]

Who's him? Are you referring to my CC? If so, CC = Criminal Code. I have a student edition with an offence grid at the back that shows sentence options and illegal sentences for all the different offences within the CC.

Sorry, read it too fast and assumed that your taking about your CIL

[Slowing-Dee]

Sorry, read it too fast and assumed that your taking about your CIL

LOL, I had a feeling that was it.

I don't really talk to my CIL, especially about police-related matter. I think the longest conversation I had with him last a whole minute, if that.

[TGM]

I agree completely with your non-PC thought process. I thought I was going to have a problem when I hit the streets for the same reasons you talk about. Come to find out, it is not much of an issue, and you will find you don't really stop too many cops, and when you do they are not doing anything worst than the last 10 citizens you gave warnings to.

You must work with other cops, and depending on where you work, may depend on that cop you just stopped to back you up someday. I have only stopped one cop more then once, and here is how it went:

1st stop - warning
2nd stop - warning, and my supervisor called his supervisor
3rd stop - Ticket issued. He complained and could not believe I was issuing him a citation - I explained that professional courtesy goes both ways, and by passing my marked police car he showed me no courtesy, therefor should expect the same. He ranted about seeing me in court, but later I found out he just sent the court his payment & I haven't seen him since.

And NOBODY! - I mean NOBODY would ever get away with DWI as a cop. The only courtesy we give in my county is that if you prefer we will allow a supervisor from your own agency transport and book you into jail. (We still file the charges). In my 12 years in law enforcement, I have been a backup officer on two traffic stops were cops were arrested for DWI. On both cases the supervisor took their badge and ID before they left the scene.

[Blackdog F4i]

Follow your concience. No matter what, you are the only one who has to look at yourself in the mirror everyday.

PC only goes so far. I have only stopped another officer once. It happened to be a Undercover Officer. He was working so he got turned loose as soon as I recognized him. If I caught another officer DUI he would get to have a discussion with my supervisor per SOP. DUI is not a warnable offense for ANYONE. Speeding? I give citizens warnings for speeding all the time. Why would I not give one to another officer or a family member.

Many people will have their own opinions about how you enforce the law. Yours is the only one that counts. If you work with good people then they won't second guess your judgement (after you get some time on the street).

[detsarg]

I have only stopped one cop more then once, and here is how it went:

1st stop - warning
2nd stop - warning, and my supervisor called his supervisor
3rd stop - Ticket issued.

And NOBODY! - I mean NOBODY would ever get away with DWI as a cop.

This is what I like to see. The citation issue seems very fair and we agree 100% on the DWI issue.

Well said.