CCW questions

[grampa carl]

I just got my CCW license in Calif. and really appreciate your comments.

First: One of my carry weapons is a Taurus 617 (.357 mag., 2"bbl). I am partial to the CorBon 110gr JHP, but I've been told that CorBon could be considered "speciality ammo" and problematic for me in court if I ever actually shoot someone. Do any of you carry CorBon ammo, specifically the .357 mag, in your duty weapons? If so, what's your opinion of it? What other ammo should I be considering for carry?

Second: It was suggested by the deputies teaching the CCW class that we may want to consider getting badges. The idea being that if we ever pulled our weapon, we would have something to distinguish us as good guys to other civillians. We were stongly admonished to NEVER display a badge otherwise. I think I know the answer, but I would like your opinion.

Third: Do you have any other advice for someone with a CCW? I consider this to be one of the most serious responsibilities I've ever had.

Thank you and much respect to you all.

[pkagel]

Wow, you are rarer than the California Condor! A Kalifornian w/ a CCW!!! I'd find out what brand ammo your local dept carries and then get the 357 version of it if you can handle the recoil. The ammo is probably something along the lines of Winchester STX or Remmington Golden Sabre.

The badges sound kind of silly to me but what do I know.

Get the best holster you can afford, practice, carry extra ammo, practice, keep it concealed, practice, make copies of your CCW just in case, practice, learn to be a good witness, practice.

[Sleuth]

1. Look in the 'firearms' section for the discussion about being sued over handloaded ammo.
2. Badges always seem like a bad idea to me - leading toward "impersonating an officer"

[hemicop]

CCW Advice

The badge thing ? Bad idea,it's too esay to be mistaken for a LEO which can later lead to Impersonating a PO charges later. Ammo? Use what your local LE agency uses.The train of thought here is "if it's okay for cops, it's okay for civilians". it's not a cure-all but having "specialized" ammo & being involved in a fatal shooting can subject the shooter of accusations that he "planned" to kill the susp. since he knew this ammo was especially effective.(Don't blame,these are arguments I've heard). Whether it sticks or not is another thing--it's all just one more headache for you . I've even heard the same argument with the handgun used. Names like "vigilante" or "slayer" present a bad idea to some attorneys & jurors. I'd find a good contoured or pancake style holster & practice,practice,practice. Use different positions,practice weak hand drills, have a cop buddy show youdrills he uses,many agencies are practicing cqb drills. When your not doing this read self-defense case law, ask a local attorney his take on testifying in a self-defense case. Your obligation with your firearm is no different than a LEOs

[Tim Dees]

First: One of my carry weapons is a Taurus 617 (.357 mag., 2"bbl). I am partial to the CorBon 110gr JHP, but I've been told that CorBon could be considered "speciality ammo" and problematic for me in court if I ever actually shoot someone. Do any of you carry CorBon ammo, specifically the .357 mag, in your duty weapons? If so, what's your opinion of it? What other ammo should I be considering for carry?.

I echo the other comments about carrying what your local PD carries, but it is entirely possible that no PD in your area is carrying a .357, as most cops have semi-autos these days. I have a personal bias toward Remington .357 Magnum SJHP 125 Grain. That was what my department carried when we had revolvers. We had a 100% success rate with it. No one ever hit with that ammo ever shot back. Not everyone died, but it certainly ended the threat for the moment. That is pretty common personal defense ammunition, and has the added advantage of generally stopping at the first thing it hits.

Second: It was suggested by the deputies teaching the CCW class that we may want to consider getting badges. The idea being that if we ever pulled our weapon, we would have something to distinguish us as good guys to other civillians. We were stongly admonished to NEVER display a badge otherwise. I think I know the answer, but I would like your opinion..

This strikes me as a very bad idea. Despite the number of "Concealed Weapon Permit" badges I have seen for sale, I would regard anyone I saw with one of these as a cop wannabee. Someone is going to see that and infer that you're a cop, and I can't think of anything good coming of that. If you confront someone with your weapon, tell them what you need to tell them and don't make any assertions about what you are or aren't. I once confronted a suspect that was exploring the idea that I wasn't in uniform as an excuse to try and assault me. I'm convinced, then and now, that he knew I was a cop. When he asked (loudly), "How do I know you're really a cop?" I replied, "If you don't do what I tell you to do, you're the only one here who will never know whether I was or not."

Third: Do you have any other advice for someone with a CCW? I consider this to be one of the most serious responsibilities I've ever had.

KEEP IT CONCEALED. No one should ever know that you are carrying a gun. This will severely limit your choice of attire, especially in the summer. Accept that as a consequence of carrying the gun, or leave it at home. Do NOT leave it in your car, where it will eventually be stolen, or a kid will get hold of it. In a restaurant, sit where the gun will be away from public view. Keep your coat buttoned. Make sure that your belt and holster is secure.

A very common trait of people unused to carrying a gun is to telegraph to people around you that you are carrying, or at least that you are off balance with regard to something on your person. They touch the gun a lot to make sure it is still secure. It takes a long time to become truly comfortable with the weight and bulk of the gun. Until you get there, be very attentive to the issue that you may be displaying your gun to others, and that will cause you trouble.

[pkagel]

He can get the same brand, not neccessarily the same caliber

I echo the other comments about carrying what your local PD carries, but it is entirely possible that no PD in your area is carrying a .357, as most cops have semi-autos these days. .

[Bodie]

First of all the ammo does not matter. You as a civilain are going to have problems in court regardless. If you shoot somebody your CCW permit does not offer you civil protection against a lawsuit or from any criminal charges.
It just shows you have a permit to carry a handgun concealed.

It is likely that any shooting you are involved in no matter how "legal' will get you A) SUED B) Arrested & Charged.

You can carry but you can't shoot unless you are beyond any doubt correct in doing so. One shadow of doubt same as with a police officer and you are in deep crap with nobody to stand behind you. No union, no department, no one. You will be the responsible party criminally if charges are filed to provide your own defense attorney at your own expense and civilly to again provide your own attorney and settle with e person suing you or pay the judgement which could financially ruin a millionaire.

No the choice of ammo ain't gonna matter.

[blueronin]

I would think any full power .357 ammo is gonna pretty potent stuff. And corbon is hotter than normal. But if you want to crry it, it's good stuff. I agree with Bodie as far as legalities.

[Sleuth]

This just in: I'm the president of a gun club, and in looking over our new Insurance policy (Carpenters NRA policy), any club member who uses a 'legaly owned firearm in self defense" has $50k coverage for the criminal case. Any left over can be applied to the civil case.
So, talk to the local clubs, see if any have this policy, and join up!
Also, get some training from GUNSITE, Blackwater, John Farnum, etc.

[ctt]

No the choice of ammo ain't gonna matter.

In civil cases it has been brought up as evidence against a shooter who acted in self-defense. An attorney can and will use anything they can to paint the shooter as an overly aggressive person with the intent to kill or seriously injure without provocation by loading "extra lethal" rounds.

[jerrymaccauley]

In civil cases it has been brought up as evidence against a shooter who acted in self-defense. An attorney can and will use anything they can to paint the shooter as an overly aggressive person with the intent to kill or seriously injure without provocation by loading "extra lethal" rounds.

This is true.There are some pretty good articles written by Massad Ayoob, a prominent use of force writer, police trainer and firearms expert. Ayoob has represented cops and civilians in many court cases where the actions of the of the good guy were considered "overly aggressive." That inclided the above mentioned "hot ammo", vigilante style shirts and ball caps, etc. Remember that there is no such thing, in legal terms, as "extra lethal" ammo. It either killed or it didn't. However, that is for your attorney to present. Remember, bigger bullets only make bigger holes if you hit your target. Practice marksmanship, tactics and exercise good judgement. Welcome to the ranks of armed americans. Be there if I need you!

[Sleuth]

ctt, what really matters is what you say and how you act before, during, and after the fact. If you tried to escape, told the BG to go away and leave you alone, and fired only as a last resort, and articulate all of that, use any round you like up to and including depleted uranium.
If you started with a verbal argument, followed the BG out of the store, yelled threats at him, and then shot, even if you used a PD type gun and ammo, you are done!

[ctt]

ctt, what really matters is what you say and how you act before, during, and after the fact. If you tried to escape, told the BG to go away and leave you alone, and fired only as a last resort, and articulate all of that, use any round you like up to and including depleted uranium.
If you started with a verbal argument, followed the BG out of the store, yelled threats at him, and then shot, even if you used a PD type gun and ammo, you are done!

Well, that's assuming you have people to back up your side of the story... I was just adding that all else equal, it's a possibility that the type of round that he uses could be held against him.

[Sleuth]

ctt, I have been certifed as an expert witness in two states and Federal Court on use of force issues. I have also, BTW, been sued for wrongful death in the line of duty, and won.
Can you provide me a citation of any court case where the type of ammunition used was brought up in court? Not what was in the newspapers (much was in the paper about my case that was never mentioned in court).

[PelcoDigital]

What do you highly recommend for ways to conceal a weapon during the summertime ? The fanny pac days are over I hope. I wear shorts and polos alot when not working.