New York State: Civilians and weapons

[Creeker]

.... I'm a retired cop, I'm allowed to carry a gun anywhere in the State and regularly travel to NYC. I don't carry. Why? There's no need. I feel safe wherever I travel in NYS. Erie County is hardly the wild west. There is no need for you to have any type of weapon. It will only get you deeper into trouble. Do the rest of the world a favor. Go about your business unarmed like the rest of the law abiding citizens. Don't let your paranoia get the best of you.

Quoting the Company Line, are we?

I'll bet there are a few people who are rolling over in their graves with regret in NY who are wishing they'd been carrying rather than believing that BS.

I am a Retired Cop who Carries, and regularly carried to NYC when I was active and before HR218. I didn't feel safe when on the Staten Is. Ferry, the Subway, or walking the streets of NYC. Why? Because I've seen the monster and I won't allow myself to depend on a telephone to defend me and mine.

[duckfan]

Forcing opinions? "right to bear arms"? No one was forcing anything. The "right to bear arms" does not include a baton. Are you guys really cops? When have you ever seen an armed, paranoid citizen result in anything good? If you're 19 and you feel a need to carry a weapon to protect yourself in your daily travels, you need to be traveling elsewhere.

Creeker,
It's no company line. I don't work for "the company" any more. It's experience and common sense. Having a weapon is far more likely to get you into trouble than get you out. The best thing for any civilian to do in a potentially violent confrontation is to LEAVE. In NY, it happens to be the law. The only time a civilian is not required to back off from anything less than an immediate threat to life is when he's in his own home. An armed civilian is less likely to take that option in the street. He's more likely to wind up dead and more often than not he's killed with his own weapon.
Here's another word of advice. The Administrations of the major PD's in the NY metro area (NYPD, Nassau County, Suffolk County)have taken a dim view of HR218. They have ,so far, refused to give their retired members the training required in HR218. If you do carry a weapon to NY, make sure you follow the provisions of the law TO THE LETTER.

[AtlCop]

Forcing opinions? "right to bear arms"? No one was forcing anything. The "right to bear arms" does not include a baton. Are you guys really cops? When have you ever seen an armed, paranoid citizen result in anything good? If you're 19 and you feel a need to carry a weapon to protect yourself in your daily travels, you need to be traveling elsewhere.

Creeker,
It's no company line. I don't work for "the company" any more. It's experience and common sense. Having a weapon is far more likely to get you into trouble than get you out. The best thing for any civilian to do in a potentially violent confrontation is to LEAVE. In NY, it happens to be the law. The only time a civilian is not required to back off from anything less than an immediate threat to life is when he's in his own home. An armed civilian is less likely to take that option in the street. He's more likely to wind up dead and more often than not he's killed with his own weapon.
Here's another word of advice. The Administrations of the major PD's in the NY metro area (NYPD, Nassau County, Suffolk County)have taken a dim view of HR218. They have ,so far, refused to give their retired members the training required in HR218. If you do carry a weapon to NY, make sure you follow the provisions of the law TO THE LETTER.

I never said the second amendment applied to the carrying of a baton. I was responding to your post that basically said a citizen had no reason to have a gun.

They don't need a reason. It is their right as guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. Nothing bugs me more than someone who wants to take away rights granted by the Constitution.

[WTPD3534]

The "right to bear arms" does not include a baton.

Oh really? Says who? I didn't know you were the one who got to define the term "arms".

Are you guys really cops?

I won't speak for others, but yes I am. Funny I was getting ready to ask you the same question.

When have you ever seen an armed, paranoid citizen result in anything good?

Just because someone is armed, it does not make them paranoid. I already went over this. I'll take a responsible, armed, alert citizen over an ignorant, head-up-rearend, sheeple anyday.

It's experience and common sense. Having a weapon is far more likely to get you into trouble than get you out.

This statement makes me wonder quite a bit, especially after you questioning others of their law enforcement status. If you truely believe that I guess you opted not to carry your gun while you worked.

The Administrations of the major PD's in the NY metro area (NYPD, Nassau County, Suffolk County)have taken a dim view of HR218. They have ,so far, refused to give their retired members the training required in HR218. If you do carry a weapon to NY, make sure you follow the provisions of the law TO THE LETTER.

And this means what exactly? That the politicians in a police uniform that are in charge in the very liberal NY/Metro area are just like the rest of the politicians that come from there.

[Moosnuff]

A baton is specifically prohibited by the NYS Penal Law. It WILL get you locked up. I'm a retired cop, I'm allowed to carry a gun anywhere in the State and regularly travel to NYC. I don't carry. Why? There's no need. I feel safe wherever I travel in NYS. Erie County is hardly the wild west. There is no need for you to have any type of weapon. It will only get you deeper into trouble. Do the rest of the world a favor. Go about your business unarmed like the rest of the law abiding citizens. Don't let your paranoia get the best of you.

Sir, let me assure you that I am not "paranoid". I am by no means seeking to equip myself with weapons to feel "more empowered", to bolster my ego (My sense of self-pride of rather healthy, thank-you-very-much), or as a subconscious way of going against the flow of the mainstream values in my area. I am not trying to carry a weapon so I can harass people under the guise of "utilizing my rights". Such are the actions of the insecure and the stupid.

I am seeking to carry a weapon because I feel that this life is the only life I am going to have, and that life, as well as the lives of friends and loved ones, are worth protecting. I have been in situations personally that the presence of a weapon would have made the outcome better.

Some people have a problem with this. I give the one-finger salute to the collective lot of them. I trust my feelings towards your ideas are not too obscure here?

Edit: You did, however, answer my question, and for that I thank you.

[Creeker]

Creeker,
It's no company line. I don't work for "the company" any more. It's experience and common sense...

It is precisely the company line. Common sense deserted the Liberal Company many years ago when the Company opted to ignore that an armed person is a citizen and an unarmed one is a subject. When an administration comes to believe that a person is safer by carrying a cell phone while delivering a pizza than being able to defend themselves in accordance with their civil liberties as guarenteed by the Constitution, the Brady's have succeeded in obscuring what God gave a Nanny Goat. If the Brass were to admit otherwise, they would appear to be lacking control of the streets.

Having a weapon is far more likely to get you into trouble than get you out. The best thing for any civilian to do in a potentially violent confrontation is to LEAVE. In NY, it happens to be the law. The only time a civilian is not required to back off from anything less than an immediate threat to life is when he's in his own home..

Yeah right, I found this out in 23 years on the street. Please show me the statistics. I would submit to you that the virtual presence of a firearm does more to deterr more violent situations than it incites. I agree that it is best for a civilian to do is to avoid a violent confrontation. However there are too many times that a civilian is unable to avoid one and in that case I would prefer that an honest citizen have an adequate defense than to decide that his corpse is job security for ME... AND a dozen or so Detectives, spokespeople, and people with loaded collars.

An armed civilian is less likely to take that option in the street. He's more likely to wind up dead and more often than not he's killed with his own weapon..

Tell that to most of the victims of Collin Ferguson....the one's that are NOT profiting from his misdeeds. Again, Bovine Scatology at the hands of Propagandists masquerading as soft on crime advocates. How many years did they force you to repeat "Guns Kill People, Guns are EVIL, People are not responsible for their own actions when they have a gun in their hands"?

Here's another word of advice. The Administrations of the major PD's in the NY metro area (NYPD, Nassau County, Suffolk County)have taken a dim view of HR218. They have ,so far, refused to give their retired members the training required in HR218. If you do carry a weapon to NY, make sure you follow the provisions of the law TO THE LETTER.

So because they are refusing to follow Federal Law, and are denying its access to their retired cops whom they apparently don't trust with firearms, I need to be worried? If I don't follow the letter of the law there, HOW WILL THEY EVER KNOW? They didn't know prior to HR218 and getting caught would have made me a FELONIOUS BOOGEYman, apparently. At this point, I think that it would look pretty bad in the media and the FOP and PBA would have a field day defending me, retired or not.

So here we have it, Sportsfans. The NYPD, Nassau and Suffolk County PD's are eager to lock us up pending our slippage on the regs of HR218, since their administrators are denying it to them.

I invite anyone with any of those organizations to respond and set us straight.

[duckfan]

It's fairly obvious that some of you guys either have difficulty reading or see information or comments that aren't there. To give an example, at no point did I recommend more stringent gun controls than we already have or imply in any way that I favor the repeal of the 2nd Ammendment. My choice not to carry is mine and mine alone. I've lived in the NYC Metro area for all of my 56 years (with the exception of a one year paid vacation in SE Asia) and I feel safe. I see no reason to carry a weapon under normal circumstances. Maybe I just have more balls than you guys or maybe it's because I'm not foolish enough to hang around high crime areas after sunset. At no point did I say that the Government should intrude any further than they already have. That being said, NY and in particular NYC has more restrictive gun laws than any other area. They have been tested many times in the Federal Courts and have held up to judicial scrutiny. Your protestations of "I have a right to bear arms" are going to fall on deaf ears.

I'm retired but I served 27 years as a Police Officer and a Detective in the NYPD and the NCPD, most of it in the NCPD. Nassau County is a suburb of NYC and has a larger population than all of your Departments combined. It has almost three times as many residents as the City of Atlanta. Want to count Atlanta's suburbs? Okay, count Nassau's surrounding area also. We have NYC to the west, 8 million, and Suffolk to the east, 1.4 million. Enough?

I would venture to say thay I investigated more shootings in one year than any of you has in your entire career. (Yes I was part of the Colin Ferguson investigation, not a big part, but I was involved.) Almost without exception, any time I investigated a civilian involved shooting, the results were bad. They were either shot outright, disarmed by their opponent or wound up shooting an innocent bystander. Only once did I see a civilian off a real bad guy. The civilian wound up getting locked up for an illegal handgun. The bad guy was carrying a pellet pistol. The civilian was exonerated on the shoot but did three months in the County Jail for the handgun. Is that what you guys consider a good result? Sorry, I don't. You can give all the "what if's?" you want. What if someone on that train was able to shoot Feguson?, What if the crew on those jets that took out the World Trade Center were armed? They don't amount to a hill of beans. The bottom line is they weren't, end of case, live with it. This isn't Dodge City. More guns aren't the answer here.
The LIRR shootings occurred on a crowded commuter train! Ferguson was a lousy shot and he was able to shoot 25 people! The armed citizen who could have taken him out probably would have wound up taking out another 2 or 3 passengers in addition to Ferguson's score. An armed pilot would have had to take out 4 armed fanatics in close quarters before they overpowered him and before they took his weapon in order to save his plane. What do you think the chances of that happening are? I've seen too many incidents where an armed, untrained, unprepared citizen resulted in a death or injury that otherwise wouldn't have happened.

This is not rural SC or NJ or GA. The population density is considerably higher here. If you fire a gun in NYC or Nassau County or even Suffolk County, there is a very good chance you're going to hit someone. In NYC and Nassau County, hunting is prohibited and you may not even fire a gun unless it's at an approved firing range. The last time I checked there were three ranges in Nassau where civilians were allowed, that's for a population of 1.2 million people. If you want to shoot, it must be done by appointment. That shotgun rack in the rear window of your pick-up had better be empty also. It's illegal to carry a loaded weapon in a vehicle. It's not a ticket either, it's a criminal charge. But hey! What about my rights?

Rather than get into a p*ssing match with you people, I'll tell you what. (This is for you retired guys)Exercise your rights! Come to NYC this summer, carrying your handgun without fulfilling all the requirements of HR218, go to Staten Island and hop the Ferry to lower Manhattan. Tell the cop who wants to search your fanny pack, that package you're carrying or pat down that bulge on your ankle to go pound salt. Let's see what happens, OK? THE FOP, and the PBA aren't going to be able to do squat for you. The FOP is meaningless here. The only reason cops here join it is in hopes our brothers to to the south will grant us pc in the event we go through their town a little too fast. It rarely works. We know it. We also know our PBA cards are worthless. PC has always been a one way street south of the Mason Dixon.(except FL, they're OK) Have you ever noticed, NYC cops will never tell you they're NYC cops. They'll tell you "I'm a cop from New York". Have you ever wondered why? They've learned from experience that not only will they not get pc, they're going to get extra paper just for being a NYC cop and having the gall to say so. You'll go through the system just like any other mutt. Rikers is lovely at this time of year, you'll love it. If you're really lucky you'll run into a cop who's gotten a BS traffic ticket from one of your brothers in the SC or VA(especially VA) State Police while he was on his way to FL. I'm sure he'll take real good care of you. Guns are a big deal here. They're an even bigger deal than a Yankee cop speeding on I95 through VA or getting caught in one of those speed traps in rural GA.

9-11 changed everything in NY. If you're carrying, it had better be legit. And yes, everyone, I mean everyone , gets the once over on the street and on public transportation.

Just so you don't get the impression that my comments on Southern PC are sour grapes, I've never been stopped by any agency, for anything. I gave pc to everyone, even the CHP. I do have many friends who were victims of southern hospitality but it never happened to me personally so I'll admit it's hearsay information. On the other hand I have no reason to believe they're lying. I did see many of the tickets. The "victims" usually posted copies in the squad room. The only time I carried in another State was when I was on an extradition and on duty. That includes trips to visit family in the Detroit area.
I consider it pc to observe local laws and not put any cop in a position where he's going to have to make a decision whether or not to grant it.

Just for yucks Google the NYPD Rant. It's an unauthorized NYPD bulletin board. You might find something of interest there on how the NYPD treats HR218. You might also be interested to read the threads about how pc is treated in Staten Island.

Hey AtlCop,
You've got a right to bear arms? Why don't we test it? Strap that Glock to your hip and take a hike through Penn Station. Just think of the millions you're going to make when they violate your "rights". If you're an active duty cop are you going to get arrested? No ,of course not, Federal Law will cover you on that, eventually. Are you going to get your balls broken and spend a few hours in custody while they check you out? You bet your *** you are. Don't expect your shield and ID card to speed things along either. Any one can buy a shield on EBAY and make a decent looking ID card with their home computer. Someone had better be available in your agency who can confirm your identity. Don't forget to tell them about the "right to bear arms". I'm sure they'll be impressed. Please come back here and let us know how you make out, OK?

Before any of you guys answer any questions or give advice to the resident of another State concerning the carrying of a weapon in that State, I suggest you at least research the laws of that State.

WTPD3534,

Oh really? Says who? I didn't know you were the one who got to define the term "arms".

This is so incredibly stupid it's not worthy of a reply. You're definitely not a cop.

[Creeker]

Yeah, I think we get it. NYC is bigger, badder, and bossier than any where else in the nation, and its cops are the only ones who have ever done things that cops everywhere else can't even fathom.

So I guess all those t-shirts for sale in the malls are correct in your little corner of the world:

"Welcome to New York. Now go home."

...and we were led to believe that 9-1-1 brought a better understanding from you guys, not more of the same "We're bigger than you, you will now serve me" attitude.

For the record, outside of the NYC metropolitan area, cops are much more laid back and reasonable to deal with, particularly in the Upstate, not out to cut other cops throats... apparently. Ya'll could take lessons in hospitality from them.

[BS_CJ]

Nassau County is a suburb of NYC and has a larger population than all of your Departments combined. It has almost three times as many residents as the City of Atlanta. Want to count Atlanta's suburbs? Okay, count Nassau's surrounding area also. We have NYC to the west, 8 million, and Suffolk to the east, 1.4 million. Enough?

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

FWIW Carrying off duty (at least in the area you work) has nothing to do with frequenting high crime areas or other such nonsense... It does have to do with running into the dirtbag you put away a couple of years back that would like to put you 6 feet under or worse your spouse or kids

[WTPD3534]

I would make a longer reply, but it would be pretty much useless as Creeker summed it up nicely. NYC cops think they're the best and baddest around and everyone else must bow to their opinions. That and I'm tired after just getting home from a night shift.......but then again I must be making that up.....since I'm not a cop and all.

I will comment on this, however.

It's fairly obvious that some of you guys either have difficulty reading or see information or comments that aren't there. To give an example, at no point did I recommend more stringent gun controls than we already have or imply in any way that I favor the repeal of the 2nd Ammendment. My choice not to carry is mine and mine alone.

That's great that you have chosen that, however there was no need for you to insert that in this discussion. The person asking the question did not ask for your personal choice on whether to carry a weapon or not he simply asked if carrying an ASP would be legal. To any logical person that would imply that you were attempting to push your choice onto him.

[djack16]

A folding, four-inch, single-edged blade is completely worthless for use in self-defense.

That is not true. A four-inch blade had great potential, granted it is nowhere near as dangerous as a firearm.

I saw a pretty fat gang-member all gashed up with a little 2 inch butterfly. The other dude was pretty surgical with it though...

I carry a 3.5 inch folder and I am pretty sure of it's abilities. You have to know where the best places to attack are so study up on the human anatomy. But if you are ever confronted by another dude with a knife you should just run.

Running is almost always a good plan. Too many people get toe-tagged because they thought they were Rambo. .

[duckfan]

"Welcome to New York. Now go home."

...

Aw Gee! Does that mean you're not going to visit us? Let me call Mayor Bloomberg so he can raise taxes to make up for all the money you were going to spend here.

For the record, the T-shirt says " Welcome to New York, now learn to speak English or go home"

If you bring illegal weapons, don't come at all. We have enough already.

You opened the door with your "bigger, badder " comment and I did write a long reply saying exactly what I thought of the Campus Security Guards, Walmart Loss Prevention guys and wanabees who frequent this this forum posing as real cops and who have the gall to give legal advice. Out of respect to the real cops who do frequent this board, I erased it. It's impossible to explain what it's like to do an 8 hour tour in the South Bronx to someone who spent his 8 hour tour writing speeders and counting squirrels.(Not that there's anything wrong with that, I did both and prefer doing squirrel head counts.)
For those who are real cops and responded to the part of this thread regarding the Second Amendment, I suggest you contact your Department's training officer and request a remedial course in Constitutional Law. You might be surprised to find that nothing in the Bill of Rights is an absolute. Believe it or not, the "right to bear arms" does not mean that you can carry any weapon(arms),any time and any place you feel like it. There's also that little problem with the mention of a well regulated militia, but I'll go along with the NRA and ignore that little discrepancy.
Have you ever noticed that you can't buy hand grenades and shoulder fired SAMS at your local Walmart? Why is that? After all, aren't they just "arms" and protected by the Second Amendment? I know that because WTPD3534 told me so. How we define the word "arms" is up to each and every individual. Grenades are a lot of fun. I enjoy blowing things up for sport. No one ever missed a deer hunting it with a grenade. Besides, it's quickest, surest and most humane way to do it. It's much better than those 50 cal. rifles some guys claim they need for hunting. Who the h*ll in the Government decided I can't have them? I also want to have a SAM just in case Al Queda hi-jacks another plane and flies it near my house. Screw everyone else, I want to be able to protect my family! Why doesn't Walmart sell them? They sell just about everything else. Isn't it my right to bear arms? Could it be that there's a law against selling them? If I respond to a Federal Court Jury summons, where do they get off telling me I can't bring my gun into the Court House? I have a full carry permit and I'm legally allowed to carry. Besides, it's a Court House and it's full of felons. What happens if I run into someone I put in prison? I won't be safe without my gun. How does the Government get away with trampling my rights and putting me in danger like that?
Any one who has an intelligent reponse to my questions is welcome to reply. Just be aware that it's a slippery slope and if you allow the Government to regulate your right to bear arms, any type of arms, you're inviting them to ban all arms. Everyone should own a howitzer.

You square badges can go back to Walmart or Target or Sears or whatever store you work for, I'm tired to playing with you and I'm outta here.( No Creeker, this doesn't apply to you.)

[Cruiser]

Oh come on. First off understand that 'we' are not talking about 'civilians' but about active or retired LEO's that are under HR218. I don't really care that the bleeding hearts that run so many departments don't like it, it is the law, get used to it. In addition I am confused about first NY is exceptionally safe and only NY LEO's need to carry yet in another post NY is so very dangerous that we lowly step-children from other states cannot possibly survive with all the difficult and dangerous calls and patrols you do. Give me a break. I have policed in a number of states and the toughest cops I have ever run into are those from the South who routinely put up with some very tough good ol' boys. Those brothers from Texas and Calif don't have it easy with the gangs there either! How about the Outlaw MC gangs in the South? I have had former NY police officers come and join my department and guess what, most don't make it or quit because of the danger and stess. ALL LEO's have a difficult time so don't play the high and mighty, it might just come back and bite you in the ***. They have finally given me the right to CCW in all 50 states and DC and I intend on doing so. If some smart-***ed rookie want to give me a bunch of crap over it, try, he will have the Feds on his butt as well as a lawsuit. I have earned the right to be treated with respect and I demand you do so just as I treat you with respect.

[jnojr]

I'm a retired cop, I'm allowed to carry a gun anywhere in the State and regularly travel to NYC. I don't carry. Why? There's no need. I feel safe wherever I travel in NYS.

How do you get on the list to receive a memo when someone is planning on mugging you, or that today is the day some psycopath is going to flip out and decide that you need to die?

[Creeker]

Aw Gee! Does that mean you're not going to visit us? Let me call Mayor Bloomberg so he can raise taxes to make up for all the money you were going to spend here.

For the record, the T-shirt says " Welcome to New York, now learn to speak English or go home"

If you bring illegal weapons, don't come at all. We have enough already.
...

Nice try at enrolling "Bully tactics" to make a brother officer feel insignificant to the grand scheme of the big city. I'd say the liklihood of "Big City" Officers visiting the South is far more likely and of them moving here even more, so I won't sweat who has the better life. Your taxes are already astronomically high anyhow, so don't worry your Rino Mayor with details about making the city more attractive to visit on many of our accounts.

As for the t-shirt, they must have added some words to the slogan in the last year since illegals have become a significantly recognised problem. I know the sentiment that was expressed and the shirts I saw.

So how is gun control working out for ya'll? I guess it is quite successful, since your Homicide rates have decreased so significantly that more homicides are being committed with pots and baseball bats nowadays. Even your own retired cops who have even spilt blood defending citizens can't be trusted with firearms... well we damn well know active cops can't be trusted to go to Conventions in other big cities, so I guess they can't be responsible with firearms either. damn good thing the Federal Govt. entrusts us more than a bloated NYC Administrator that has maybe a week on the street... if that much.

Despite apparent propaganda to the contrary, it is not retired or active Cops that bring illegal weapons. I assure you that all of mine that I bring to the city are quite legal, and that I'll be qualified to carry them, despite the apparent hostility of those who wear the badge to my doing so. I would suggest that they will be wasting their efforts on arresting me when there are plenty of other "perps" for them to successfully prosecute and for better reasons.