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  • Use of force question

    I have seen and heard about instances where force was used but yet no effort was made to make an arrest or to detain and ID...also I doubt it ever makes it into a report. Seems risky to me. How do your department's handle it?

  • #2
    This is a HUGE liability. If the circumstances require that I use any level of force above verbal commands, the resistant subject is going to jail and a report will be filed. With society being the way it is today, an officer would have to be insane to not charge anyone they had to lay hands on.

    “Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”

    Miyamoto Musashi

    “Life Is Hard, But It's Harder When You're Stupid”

    George V. Higgins (from The Friends of Eddie Coyle)

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    • #3
      I'm not real sure what you are talking about. I presume you are asking about crowd control situations, breaking up fights or something like that. We document the circumstances and conditions, what force was used, and what the result was. It may be a large fight, a failure to obey verbal commands to cease their behavior, followed by spraying mace into the crowd, followed by everyone screaming and running away.

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      • #4
        At a concert we occasionally break up minor fights etc and don't arrest or even generate a report. But those are events where we might have 30,000 people and <20 LEO's-----------we just move on to more serious problems.

        Most of the time in normal situations if force is used someone goes to jail
        Since some people need to be told by notes in crayon .......Don't PM me with without prior permission. If you can't discuss the situation in the open forum ----it must not be that important

        My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

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        • #5
          What "instances" are you referring to? What have you actually witnessed, not heard?
          Now go home and get your shine box!

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          • #6
            I would say 90% of the time, any and all force is documented here, because if we used force, it was for good reason!!
            The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed.

            I Am the Sheepdog.


            "And maybe just remind the few, if ill of us they speak,
            that we are all that stands between
            the monsters and the weak." - Michael Marks


            sigpic

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            • #7
              The force that I have witnessed dozens of times of the years is in either of our big cities downtown areas as it relates to fights, disturbances, and general crowd control.

              I will see officers with their "family" sized canisters of OC and some with just a two or four ounce canister. Fights are broken up with a good dose of OC, rowdy bar patrons will be physically thrown out on to the sidewalk...if they get up and walk/run away, that is usually the end of it, if they turn around on the officers? A good face full of spray.

              Also, I have seen it used in herding the bar crowds, where an officer or officers downwind will spray it behind a large group to keep them moving.

              My training was always that once we sprayed someone, we became responsible for them in that if we just let them roam off into the night drunk as a skunk and blind as a bat and they get hit by a bus we would be liable.

              In some of these cases where a physical ejection or fight separation occurs, you could have idiots showing up the next day at the PD saying they have a separated shoulder and fell over a curb and got a concussion because they couldn't see from the OC. I understand why cops do it, but I still cringe at the liability issues of letting a guy(s) just wander off blind down the street.

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              • #8
                I would say that you are not responsible for anyone you spray unless you physically take them into custody. Limited numbers of officers can't arrest large numbers of people. The goal is to break up the groups and move them on. If you had to physically arrest everyone who got sprayed or pushed, you'd have a line at the sally port AND you would still have a large crowd in the middle of the street doing whatever they wanted to do, which is why so few people are arrested at civil disturbances. People who expect the police to arrest everyone in these types of situations simply don't understand the logistics and consequences of actually doing so.
                Last edited by just joe; 10-24-2014, 12:52 PM.

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                • #9
                  If it's a general melee, you aren't going to be able to hook everyone you touch. Defend yourself and your partners, quell the violence, hook who you can, go to the next call. All this hysteria about going hands-on is fairly new, and shouldn't be such a big deal.
                  Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. - Ronald Reagan

                  I don't think It'll happen in the US because we don't trust our government. We are a country of skeptics, raised by skeptics, founded by skeptics. - Amaroq

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                  • #10
                    I'm not chasing through a crowd of violent drunks just to catch someone that I've sprayed to break up an affray. I've completed use of force reports where the offender is 'unknown' several times.

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                    • #11
                      There seems to be an apples to oranges comparison of use of force and crowd control. The OP asked a question regarding use of force and policy, crowd control was not mentioned and is a totally different thing.

                      “Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”

                      Miyamoto Musashi

                      “Life Is Hard, But It's Harder When You're Stupid”

                      George V. Higgins (from The Friends of Eddie Coyle)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by slamdunc View Post
                        There seems to be an apples to oranges comparison of use of force and crowd control. The OP asked a question regarding use of force and policy, crowd control was not mentioned and is a totally different thing.

                        Reread post #7, which is the first post in which he actually specified what he was asking about.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by just joe View Post
                          Reread post #7, which is the first post in which he actually specified what he was asking about.
                          This OP has a history of starting one subject then poking more things into his argument

                          I think a few of you old timers might remember poster (poser) !0-8 sorry BUCK EIGHT
                          Last edited by Iowa #1603; 10-30-2014, 05:20 PM.
                          Since some people need to be told by notes in crayon .......Don't PM me with without prior permission. If you can't discuss the situation in the open forum ----it must not be that important

                          My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by just joe View Post
                            Reread post #7, which is the first post in which he actually specified what he was asking about.
                            My reply relates to the original post. Just pointing out his inconsistency.

                            “Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”

                            Miyamoto Musashi

                            “Life Is Hard, But It's Harder When You're Stupid”

                            George V. Higgins (from The Friends of Eddie Coyle)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Usually any use of force greater than verbal commands gets a full use of force report.

                              The exception, as noted, is a riot or other large scale disturbance. Even then a report will be done about the incident, usually one main report and a supplemental from each deputy involved, where the use of force will be recorded as well as possible.

                              My training was always that once we sprayed someone, we became responsible for them in that if we just let them roam off into the night drunk as a skunk and blind as a bat and they get hit by a bus we would be liable.
                              ...and when you shoot a canister of OC at a rioting crowd you're responsible for every single person within 50 feet of the impact point? What agency do you work for so I don't apply there.

                              you could have idiots showing up the next day at the PD saying they have a separated shoulder and fell over a curb and got a concussion because they couldn't see from the OC.
                              1. Evidence?

                              2. Arrest the person for disorderly, since they admit being there and were close enough to get sprayed.

                              As an aside, please explain how you would arrest or detain 20 bar patrons with 4 officers.
                              Last edited by tanksoldier; 10-27-2014, 08:37 PM.
                              "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

                              "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

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