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  • Lethal force / Number of rounds question.

    Hi guys.
    So I've always been trained to fire 3 rounds at the center of mass / whatever you can see then to re evaluate the situation. Is this common practice?

    Was watching cops the other day and there was a shooting where the officer just fired the one round into the guys leg, just thought it was weird. I mean... who wants to spend their time aiming at someones leg when you can just aim center of mass and put them down?
    There was another one on the same show where the officer only fired one round at close range.

    Does it matter how many rounds are fired? or is this just something that the media might use against you?

    One of my friends in Oregon said that the PD there advises officers to empty the entire clip any time they pull the trigger (basically). That sounds a little off to me, but do people get trained like that?

    Thanks!

    Matt

  • #2
    Originally posted by mattevans View Post
    Hi guys.
    So I've always been trained to fire 3 rounds at the center of mass / whatever you can see then to re evaluate the situation. Is this common practice?

    Was watching cops the other day and there was a shooting where the officer just fired the one round into the guys leg, just thought it was weird. I mean... who wants to spend their time aiming at someones leg when you can just aim center of mass and put them down?
    There was another one on the same show where the officer only fired one round at close range.

    Does it matter how many rounds are fired? or is this just something that the media might use against you?

    One of my friends in Oregon said that the PD there advises officers to empty the entire clip any time they pull the trigger (basically). That sounds a little off to me, but do people get trained like that?

    Thanks!

    Matt
    Ok here we go-

    Originally posted by mattevans View Post
    Was watching cops the other day…
    If you are basing anything about police work off of this show you are silly.

    That said- I cant nor will I speak to any other agencies policies, but will say that most cops are trained to shoot with the intent to stop the threat. Each scenario is different.

    And it’s commonly called deadly force; or that force that is likely to cause either serious bodily injury or death- not “Lethal Force”.

    To recap: with the intent to stop the threat


    Originally posted by mattevans View Post
    One of my friends…
    I have a friend who swears Elvis is still alive, that UFO’s visit us and that there is a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow.
    Originally posted by SSD
    It has long been the tradition on this forum and as well as professionally not to second guess or Monday morning QB the officer's who were actually on-scene and had to make the decision. That being said, I don't think that your discussion will go very far on this board.
    Originally posted by Iowa #1603
    And now you are arguing about not arguing..................

    Comment


    • #3
      Question: How many rounds should be fired to stop a lethal threat?

      Answer: As many as it takes!

      There is no particular number. The situation will dictate the response

      And the center of available mass would be the target in most circumstances. I highly doubt that the the officer you referred to on the television show was intentionally aiming at the leg unless it was the only available target. That nonsense only happens in the movies.

      And BTW I'm not trying to be rude but "clips" go in your hair, not In your pistol. They are called "magazines".
      Last edited by IdahoPO; 11-15-2013, 12:14 AM.
      All comments and opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the policy or opinion of my employing agency.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by mattevans View Post
        So I've always been trained to fire 3 rounds at the center of mass / whatever you can see then to re evaluate the situation.
        Where did you receive this training? Have you asked your use of force instructor or consulted your agency use of force policy? The answers you seek are contained therein.
        Originally posted by mattevans View Post
        Is this common practice?
        If that is your agency policy AND it makes your threat no longer a threat, don't worry about 'common practice'. What does your use of force policy / instructor tell you?
        Originally posted by mattevans View Post
        Was watching cops the other day
        Don't ever do that! COPS is entertainment.
        Originally posted by mattevans View Post
        the officer just fired the one round into the guys leg, just thought it was weird.
        Did it make the bad guy stop trying to hurt the nice police officer? If so, it worked, if not, it didn't work.
        Originally posted by mattevans View Post
        who wants to spend their time aiming at someones leg when you can just aim center of mass and put them down?
        What does your use of force policy / instructor tell you about this?
        Originally posted by mattevans View Post
        There was another one on the same show where the officer only fired one round at close range.
        Did it make the bad guy stop trying to hurt the nice police officer? If so, it worked, if not, it didn't work. What does your use of force policy / instructor tell you about this?
        Originally posted by mattevans View Post
        Does it matter how many rounds are fired? or is this just something that the media might use against you?
        Yes, it matters how many rounds you fire. If you fire enough to stop your threat, that is good. If you stop firing before he quits trying to kill you, that is bad. If you are counting rounds you are firing at a bad guy who is trying to hurt you, you are in imbecile.
        Originally posted by mattevans View Post
        One of my friends in Oregon said that the PD there advises officers to empty the entire clip any time they pull the trigger (basically).
        Only if that stops your threat from being a threat AND you don't have time to re-load.
        Originally posted by mattevans View Post
        That sounds a little off to me, but do people get trained like that?
        You might consult your use of force policy / instructor.

        Last edited by slamdunc; 11-14-2013, 11:51 PM.
        “Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”

        Miyamoto Musashi

        “Life Is Hard, But It's Harder When You're Stupid”

        George V. Higgins (from The Friends of Eddie Coyle)

        Comment


        • #5
          Your advice is excellent slamdunc, but based on his profile I don't think he has a agency policy on this matter.
          Last edited by IdahoPO; 11-15-2013, 12:15 AM.
          All comments and opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the policy or opinion of my employing agency.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by IdahoPO View Post
            Your advice is excellent slamdunc, but based on his profile I don't think he has a agency policy.
            Or, for that matter, a clue about life outside of television.

            “Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”

            Miyamoto Musashi

            “Life Is Hard, But It's Harder When You're Stupid”

            George V. Higgins (from The Friends of Eddie Coyle)

            Comment


            • #7
              Anyway. When I received my firearms training I didn't ask the question, I didn't really think about it. The policy here is to minimize the threat in accordance with your training, which would be 3 rounds center of mass, or additional groups of three until you've sorted your situation.

              When I was asking about how many rounds you fire, I was referring to 'would you be in trouble for firing too many' hitting the guy 50 times for example. Near here we had an officer dump 60 rounds into a car, which is perfectly fine - I was wondering if that goes for most departments?

              So what does your training dictate? Just to fire until they stop, or does it specify to fire so many rounds then to re evaluate the situation?
              I'm assuming you are reevaluating the situation after each round if you just fire until they stop, but I can get three rounds out without thinking much faster than if I think to myself 'is he done yet' each time I pull the trigger.

              Regarding my profile, I haven't updated that in years... Don't plan on it either.

              Comment


              • #8
                The OP is on crack! Time to tell 'um how the "real cops" do things. When faced with "lethal force", I will use as much lethal force necessary to stop the aggressor from continuing to use lethal force against me.
                Getting shot hurts! Don't under estimate the power of live ammo. A .22LR can kill you! I personally feel that it's best to avoid being shot by any caliber. Your vest may stop the bullet, but you'll still get a nice bruise or other injury to remember the experience.

                Comment


                • #9
                  So now I'm on crack?

                  Ok... I think a few people have completely missed the point here...

                  My training is to fire three rounds at a minimum. If all three are in the head, then that's where they go. If the first round has ended the threat, it doesn't matter because the other two are coming.
                  A friend of mines is to fire until you are out of ammo, apparently. Doesn't matter if the first round dropped them or not.

                  What I am asking is.
                  Is this a common way of training, or are you taught to individually re evaluate the situation every time you pull the trigger (aka, is he still a threat)?

                  What I'm not asking:
                  Hey, so I was visiting my parents and my dad had cops on the tv, so we watched the end of it before we went out. I have some questions about cops, the tv show!
                  Seriously, read the post... I don't visit these forums often, and it's mainly because I find it very hard to believe that some of the "officers" on here are actual officers... Everyone I work with tries to get information before randomly acting, it's seriously not hard to read the post all the way through, or maybe even the op's reply which clarified a few points? No?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Is this where you got your training?

                    http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/201...sld-operators/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Haha, is that a real place?
                      I do have to say, those guys seem to take it more seriously than some of the people at the academy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mattevans View Post
                        Just to fire until they stop
                        There now, you've answered your own question. Have you had an opportunity to read up on your use of force policy or speak with your use of force instructor yet? You might call the police academy you attended; you did attend an academy, didn't you?

                        As for updating your profile, that isn't necessary, it is pretty obvious that you are not a law enforcement officer with powers of arrest.

                        “Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”

                        Miyamoto Musashi

                        “Life Is Hard, But It's Harder When You're Stupid”

                        George V. Higgins (from The Friends of Eddie Coyle)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          How may I ask would that be obvious? ...
                          Anyway, I'll take another look at the policies but as far as I remember it was fairly vague, just stating to act within your training.

                          Since posting this I've spoken with my shift partner who went to a different academy and was trained slightly differently. His training is to continue to put rounds in the center of mass until something changes.

                          Seems like my training isn't the norm then?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mattevans View Post
                            I'll take another look at the policies but as far as I remember it was fairly vague, just stating to act within your training.
                            The agency generally likes to know that their personnel have a firm grasp on certain HIGH LIABILITY AREAS of the policy. The big three are Civil Rights, Use Of Force, and Emergency Vehicle Operations. There should be no doubt on your instructor / partner / FTO / or supervisor's mind that you 'get it' when it comes to these things.
                            Originally posted by mattevans View Post
                            Since posting this I've spoken with my shift partner who went to a different academy and was trained slightly differently. His training is to continue to put rounds in the center of mass until something changes.
                            He is closer to right; if the 'something changes' you mention is cessation of the threat, he is spot-on.
                            Originally posted by mattevans View Post
                            Seems like my training isn't the norm then?
                            If you paid for an academy to give you that three shot crap, you should ask for your money back. They did a great disservice to you and the public you are serving.

                            “Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”

                            Miyamoto Musashi

                            “Life Is Hard, But It's Harder When You're Stupid”

                            George V. Higgins (from The Friends of Eddie Coyle)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Simple... use as much deadly force as necessary to stop the threat... THAT is the training standard... no "3 round" requirement, no "double taps", "2 to the body one to the head"... THE STANDARD is AS MUCH AS NEEDED TO STOP THE THREAT.
                              The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed.

                              I Am the Sheepdog.


                              "And maybe just remind the few, if ill of us they speak,
                              that we are all that stands between
                              the monsters and the weak." - Michael Marks


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