Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Concealed Carry on a college campus

Collapse

300x250 Mobile

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    LawFowl, I never got caught with the weapon off-duty, but the law indicated that no weapons will be allowed to be carried on school property with few exceptions, like uniformed or working law enforcement. Off-duty law enforcement officers, by code couldn't carry. I highly doubt it would be enforced to be honest if I was observed with hit, but the fact that they had the legal right to enforce it bugs me. We're on the same page...
    "I sometimes wish that people would put a little more emphasis upon the observance of the law than they do upon its enforcement."
    -Calvin Coolidge

    "Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they can't get it wrong." - Unk

    Comment


    • #32
      http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=7312540

      If you guys have'nt seen this article it's pretty accurate to how I feel about arming college students. I don't like Diane Sawyer(too liberal) but it brings up a good point.

      Comment


      • #33
        Diane Sawyers lil docu-mockery was, IMHO, total poop. The shooter in each scenario the students went through was carried out by a highly trained professional who obviously knew in advance exactly who/where the armed student was. That's simply not realistic. Ms Sawyer just lost another fistful of journalistic integrity points in my book. She had an agenda and set out to prove it by arranging it so that the students would fail. She did accidentally make an important point though... see how easy it was for the attacker to carry on campus??? Whoops!!!

        Comment


        • #34
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8CAH6_PLF4

          Now, I'm not as brash about this as he is, but he's got some wonderful points. By the way, this has really nothing to do with political views. Just think everyone should be able to protect themselves and actually should be able to protect others.

          Your article brings up a good point. I'm a firearms instructor and a defensive tactics instructor. I see VERY few people handle a weapon or have the ability under the little bit of stress to perform. I try to put them in realistic settings and trainings, but usually they fail. These are cops, seasoned cops. I'm not arguing that more training isn't needed, because it is. But if you want your idea to hold true, you're telling about 90% of the police force to not carry a weapon as well.
          "I sometimes wish that people would put a little more emphasis upon the observance of the law than they do upon its enforcement."
          -Calvin Coolidge

          "Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they can't get it wrong." - Unk

          Comment


          • #35
            Also, how much you want to bet that the firearms instructor had prior knowledge of what student had the gun? You can see it when he's shooting, he tracks the student with the firearms, then pops off a couple other people, then goes right back to the person with the firearm... It just shows how that law enforcement agency feels about arming people. It's not accurate. Everyone's going to look at this and think every law enforcement officer thinks they shouldn't. Not true at all. I could hold a "show" like this one and have a very different outcome than this ABC newscast that involved a kid playing the bad guy instead of a firearms instructor. You just have to be fair and realistic, and this wasn't. Your video only points out one aspect of it, and that's training and I agree on that... That training continuous training is needed for EVERYONE with a weapon, including us, but it's just not going to happen due to cost etc...

            Also, in one of the scenarios, the shooter was injured and didn't have the ability to move on to another classroom etc. They immediately point out the fact that she was shot in the head, but fail to mention when she was, was it after she shot the shooter? She may have been shot in the head before she made that critical hit on the bad guy, but what if she wasn't? Your kid's still coming home for Christmas break.

            There are going to be casualties in these situations. They forgot to tell you that history has shown that school shooters generally go in to kill as many people as possible, until they know they can't win anymore. Then they'll usually take their own life.

            I'd like to see nobody in the class have a weapon and let the shooter come in then and start going for 5-10 minutes until one of us (LEO) arrive. Again, fair is fair.

            Listen, I'm not saying that this is a fix all end all to have students carrying weapons, in fact, I don't think it will every happen that a lot of students are going to be armed. But, I do think it would be a good direction to go.
            "I sometimes wish that people would put a little more emphasis upon the observance of the law than they do upon its enforcement."
            -Calvin Coolidge

            "Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they can't get it wrong." - Unk

            Comment


            • #36
              Camo Cop, I didn't notice you pointed out the fact that they had a firearms instructor as the bad guy. Sorry. Good to know we're kind of on the same page though!!
              "I sometimes wish that people would put a little more emphasis upon the observance of the law than they do upon its enforcement."
              -Calvin Coolidge

              "Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they can't get it wrong." - Unk

              Comment


              • #37
                Regardless, I don't let anyone restrict my ability to protect myself. I don't care where I'm at or what sign is posted. I have the right to protect myself and I exercise that right. I don't let silly laws come in my way.
                Silly laws? Whether you agree with them or not, carry where it's prohibited and you will likely go to jail and your weapon will be seized. I could care less either way. Many universities prohibit carry and in some states/areas the penalties are enhanced for violating those laws. Last I checked I believe it was a felony to carry on school campuses in TN. LEOs are exempt for the most part. State law allows them to carry at Board of Regent Schools. Private and community schools vary.

                The states have a right under their constitution and the federal constitution to regulate the carry of arms. There's no questioning that.
                Last edited by SgtScott31; 03-14-2011, 04:48 PM.
                I'm 10-8 like a shark in a sea of crime..

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Camo Cop View Post
                  Diane Sawyers lil docu-mockery was, IMHO, total poop. The shooter in each scenario the students went through was carried out by a highly trained professional who obviously knew in advance exactly who/where the armed student was. That's simply not realistic. Ms Sawyer just lost another fistful of journalistic integrity points in my book. She had an agenda and set out to prove it by arranging it so that the students would fail. She did accidentally make an important point though... see how easy it was for the attacker to carry on campus??? Whoops!!!
                  There's never been a highly trained professional go off the deep end? That's not realistic? I can think of at least 5 cases just off the top of my head.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Irish, it happens. I think what we were trying to say is that they set the student up for failure by having the firearms instructor be the bad guy and to prove their point. Again, I wish they would have not known what student was armed during the scenario.

                    Here's how the scenario should have gone. And it should have gone this way several times to see how accurate it would have been. When trying to prove a point, you don't just do it once and base everything off that.

                    - Same prep - Arm the student(s) and nobody in the class or the shooter know who is armed. Send in whoever you want to start blasting.

                    - Same prep - Send the shooter in to the class where nobody is armed.

                    Then evaluate and see what the difference would have been.
                    Last edited by LPD003; 03-14-2011, 09:34 PM. Reason: Clarify
                    "I sometimes wish that people would put a little more emphasis upon the observance of the law than they do upon its enforcement."
                    -Calvin Coolidge

                    "Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they can't get it wrong." - Unk

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by irish21 View Post
                      There's never been a highly trained professional go off the deep end? That's not realistic? I can think of at least 5 cases just off the top of my head.
                      Sure it has happened but it's rare. Even when it happens I doubt the shooter knows, going in, exactly who is carrying a concealed weapon, where they are seated, etc... A more fair scenario would have had another student acting as the shooter. The student/shooter should have been told that with that particular scenario they wouldn't be challenged by a gun wielding student. The defensively armed student was completely robbed of the element of surprise in Ms. Sawyer's bug-a-boo mock-u-mentary.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by LPD003 View Post
                        Irish, it happens. I think what we were trying to say is that they set the student up for failure by having the firearms instructor be the bad guy and to prove their point. Again, I wish they would have not known what student was armed during the scenario.

                        Here's how the scenario should have gone. And it should have gone this way several times to see how accurate it would have been. When trying to prove a point, you don't just do it once and base everything off that.

                        - Same prep - Arm the student(s) and nobody in the class or the shooter know who is armed. Send in whoever you want to start blasting.

                        - Same prep - Send the shooter in to the class where nobody is armed.

                        Then evaluate and see what the difference would have been.
                        Why not? If a active shooter enters a room, starts shooting...EVERYONE starts running except for ONE person that stands up and points a firearm...It's safe to say that person would stand out to the shooter. Same with law enforcement, if a LEO enters a room where shots are fired...EVERYONE is running, except for ONE person holding a gun, it's safe to say that person holding the gun will be engaged. Which is why all the students were wearing the exact same attire, so the firearms instructor wouldn't be able to easily identify the armed student in the chaos.

                        But I would be curious to see the experiment staged differently like you said; put the armed student in a different spot each time.


                        Originally posted by Camo Cop View Post
                        Sure it has happened but it's rare. Even when it happens I doubt the shooter knows, going in, exactly who is carrying a concealed weapon, where they are seated, etc... A more fair scenario would have had another student acting as the shooter. The student/shooter should have been told that with that particular scenario they wouldn't be challenged by a gun wielding student. The defensively armed student was completely robbed of the element of surprise in Ms. Sawyer's bug-a-boo mock-u-mentary.
                        It's NOT as rare as you'd think. A lot of these active shooters spend time practicing, that's why they're so proficient. Fort Hood shooting, Officer Dinkheller shooting, Andres Raya shooting "Slicing the pie," and so on were all executed by TRAINED persons. Even if they're not formally trained, they still spend time perfecting their actions. Look at Columbine, Virginia Tech. etc. These crazy bastards spent hours upon hours being tactical and planning out how to maintain the advantage over these people.

                        And the armed student WILL ALWAYS lose the element of surprise; I don't care how diligent someone is, when your sitting in a class room listening to a Prof. rabble on, your not thinking about a man coming through the door with a gun. However, the active shooter is already in the mindset to start killing students. He's one step ahead of the armed student.

                        Honestly, if we armed college students or completely disarmed all of Americans. It wouldn't make a difference, it's a society problem that's causing this. Not firearms. Passing concealed campus carry might help end one or two engagements, but it's not going to stop these crazy bastards from doing the same thing. What I'm trying to say is we're looking at this in the wrong light. It's not about the firearms, it's about the mental state of all these people.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Good points Irish. Most of the these shooters are proficient with their weapons.

                          A little fuel for your argument is looking at the Detroit PD shooting last month. Some dude walks into the PD and starts blasting cops with a shotgun that weren't really paying attention, and these were trained cops. So you can argue that if the trained cops had difficulty with this in their own setting (PD), some college kid is going to have that much more difficulty with an active shooter than the cops did. But, as always, I can argue that if they weren't armed, they'd all be dead right now.

                          It can be argued until I throw up on both sides. And you're right about the mental state of all these people. But, it's not going to change anytime soon. There's always going to be crazy people around that do this cowardly sort of thing.

                          Think of it this way. If you're on duty and someone wants to kill you bad enough, it's pry going to happen. But, we train (not nearly as much as we need to) to help make that window a bit smaller for the bad guy so that we can go home to our families. We have weapons because it's dangerous to go to work. Things are changing and it's becoming more dangerous for college kids to go to school. So, until they screen these kids mentally every week before they go to class, it's going to keep getting worse... and we know that's not happening.

                          I just think the possibility of more students being saved would be greater if you let students carry a weapon if they feel comfortable doing it. If one student gets saved because someone else eliminates the wacko before he's done murdering people, I think it's worth it. That's all I'm saying. Let it be their option.

                          Here's a question I asked myself when this topic got brought up:
                          You hear there's going to be a shooter on Monday at school. Your child doesn't have the option to not go to school. Do you want them armed or are you going to not even give them a chance by not letting them be armed?

                          The problem is, you don't know when they're going to show up. So, why not let them be prepared the best they can be by arming them?

                          I did note that you said passing concealed campus carry might help end one or two engagements... That's enough for me to pass concealed carry in my book.
                          "I sometimes wish that people would put a little more emphasis upon the observance of the law than they do upon its enforcement."
                          -Calvin Coolidge

                          "Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they can't get it wrong." - Unk

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Very true LPD! If it saves even one life, it's worth it in the end.
                            However, I'm also worried about causalities caused by the defender, after all, the training required to get a CC permit are extremely minimal, and non-existent in some States. Most of the people that CC won't be able to properly identify and engage the threat. They train by shooting at a circle on a piece of paper.
                            For New Mexico, all you need is $150 and to shoot a target that's 7 feet away from you. My opinion on the matter is, "You want to conceal a weapon like a Cop, train like a Cop." Train for 8 hours a day, for two weeks, just like the Cadets in New Mexico do. Make the standards more difficult for CC; age, health, mental state, accuracy, etc. and I'd gladly support a Campus Carry bill.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              To be honest, I'd like everyone to be required to go into the military like some countries do. Now that's a plan! The more training, the better I say, but it's simply not happening. It's like pulling teeth for my department to even come out and qualify ourselves. Although, I make them do drills like crazy BEFORE they qualify so they can't say, "Hey, I have to leave for an appointment, is it okay for me to sneak out?" PS, I responded to your taser question too.
                              "I sometimes wish that people would put a little more emphasis upon the observance of the law than they do upon its enforcement."
                              -Calvin Coolidge

                              "Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they can't get it wrong." - Unk

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                LPD03, You're right... we could go back and forth until we both throw up. Bottom line for me is: An armed person has a fighting chance. An unarmed one is at the complete mercy of the shooter.

                                Comment

                                MR300x250 Tablet

                                Collapse

                                What's Going On

                                Collapse

                                There are currently 5321 users online. 338 members and 4983 guests.

                                Most users ever online was 158,966 at 04:57 AM on 01-16-2021.

                                Welcome Ad

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X