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Concealed Carry on a college campus

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  • #16
    To add a bit more, recently our local high schools didn't allow me to carry a weapon on their property while off-duty... I'm sure they'd wish that rule wasn't in effect if my weapon was needed and their lives were in danger. Hell, if I'm not carrying, I want some dude beside me to have one if some wack job comes in blazing... to say you wouldn't is ludicrous.
    "I sometimes wish that people would put a little more emphasis upon the observance of the law than they do upon its enforcement."
    -Calvin Coolidge

    "Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they can't get it wrong." - Unk

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    • #17
      I have a few comments to add this thread as I currently teach at 2 state colleges and a private university. BTW I am active duty Army with an Infantry background.

      I was born and grew up in Lynchburg not far from LU.

      Maturity has been brought up in this thread and I do believe that it plays a crucial role, but more importantly is TRAINING. Maturity and reponsibilty are key, but without proper training the individual becomes more of a liability than an asset. As far as your feelings towards campus police at LU, they have left you with an intial impression that will be difficult to change. Just know that they are required by law, to go through extensive training that has standards that they must meet or they will not be LE on campus or anywhere. I would recomend that you ask if you can do a couple of ride alongs with campus police. After a couple of rides your opinion will changes especially once you witness the BS they deal with. I know many of LEO's at all 3 universities I'm at, and have nothing but respect for what they do..everyday.

      I have a CC but do not aways carry, especially where it's not permitted. I fully support being able to protect yourself, and trying to get approval on campus will always end with hitting a brick wall. A few years back there were students that held a peacful protest on campus about cc to raise awarness. Nothing changed, just a few alternate reccomendations like allowing professors and faculty to carry, which I quickly voiced my opinion about proper training.

      Bad things are going to happen no matter what preventative measures we have in place. Education and awarness need to be utilized more, and often. If a known idividual is diplaying certain behaviors or tendancies, somebody needs to say something to someone. This may cause numerous false accusations, however it could also neutralize a situation from developing into something that ends up on the evening news. The mindset of a person that wishes to do harm is difficult to predict and sometimes cannot be stopped. Situational awarness in any environment will only be as good as the person paying attention.


      Remember..never judge a person until you've walked a mile in their shoes...that way you are a mile away and you have their shoes !!

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      • #18
        I'm in favor of it.
        It would be restricted, in my state, to persons over 21 years of age who have already passed a background check etc...
        We have ex-military students who've seen combat yet we deny them CCW on campus? That's silly IMHO.
        We have off duty officers who already carry concealed if they want to.
        We have criminals who already carry if they want to.
        As to drunken frat parties: it's illegal, here, for a CCW holder to carry while intoxicated.
        No one has to leave their 1st amendment rights outside of the gates of campus? Why leave other rights outside the gates?

        At any place I'm required to leave my weapon behind I believe the persons or entity making me leave it behind should become responsible and LIABLE for my safety. In other words, if you take away my ability to defend myself, you adopt the responsibility of making sure no harm comes to me.

        Citizens and off duty officers have stopped school shooters before. Each time it has happened (that I know of) the shooter surrendered without hesitation when faced with armed resistance. In each instance that I've found on the web, there was no notable confusion between the armed citizen and the police when the police arrived. Evidently the police were able to observe the actions and attitudes of bystanders and quickly figure out that the guy with the gun was a "good guy" while the guy lying on the ground was the "bad guy." The cases I have a list of are admittedly imperfect but they do, IMO, paint a positive picture.
        Google each of these shooters individually:
        Luke Woodham
        Andrew Wurst
        Peter Odighizuwa
        Alvaro Rafael Castillo

        To be fair... one incident happened off campus at a school dance and one shooter was actually stopped by a school deputy. One case involves a heroic assistant principal (who illegally possessed a handgun on campus) and the other case involves two off duty cops who had to retrieve their weapons from their respective personally owned vehicles. Another comment in regards to fairness and this debate: Only one of these cases involves a university.

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        • #19
          screamneagle68,

          I don't want to seem like I have something against LUPD, because I sure do not. I understand they have to go through the same required training as any other LEO. I have the up most respect for them and for the job they do. I just don't completely trust them, and I don't like not being able to defend myself in the same manner that I can off campus. I do agree with your thoughts on training. I believe that a gun needs to be the absolute last course of action in any situation, and should only be used to "one up" the force being used by the adversary. While maturity is a big factor that everyone will look at, I feel like because we are talking about students some will automatically think of them as kids. As I said before, either I am mature and responsible to carry everywhere, or I am not mature enough to carry anywhere.

          Camo Cop,

          I appreciate your reply. I think that anyone who wishes to carry on campus should be held to the same, if not stricter, requirements to be permitted to carry on campus. I The people who want to do harm are going to do it whether it is illegal or not. By not allowing me to protect myself puts me at a disadvantage. I think that if a student were to handle a situation such as a shooting before LE arrived, that student would have the clarity, and common sense, to disarm themselves (if the shooter is dead) or to get out of the way. I also think that by allowing students to carry, it could help deter anyone who would plan an attack on a campus.
          Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil because my GOD IS GREATER.

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          • #20
            globerry,

            I'm a little confused when you say you have the utmost respect for LUPD, but don't trust them. To me, respect & trust goes hand in hand, you can't have one without the other. I can tell that you are mature and responsible beyond your age...wish there were more young adults with these attributes. I completely agree that you should be able to defend yourself on and off campus, but I do also believe that laws have their task & purpose, even when we don't always agree with them. I'd say that the threat risk is much greater when you go off of campus.

            I also agree that if an entity forbids me to protect myself and relinguish my firearm, they had better provide security measures to ensure my safety. Each state has laws that indicate where you can carry and where you can't. Courtrooms are a no-brainer as LEO's are always there.

            I am not advocating to break the law, but if you are really worried about your security on a college campus, you'll have to weigh the risk and repercussions of getting caught carrying concealed. There's a saying that many live by : I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

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            • #21
              screamneagle68,

              i respect them as officers and a dept and will always submit to their authority and do what i can to help them in the even that i can. however, i do not completely trust them as people to handle a situation in the event it were to arise. i guess i shouldn't judge them, but basing my opinion on the experiences ive had with them on campus, off campus at accidents or brush fires, and the few i have been around away from the job, it leads me to question the trust i put in them for my protection. sorry if that seems contradicting.

              while i would like to carry, i refuse to break the law for it. in the event i truly feared for my life, i would not go to school. i am just trying to be proactive versus reactive. i refuse to break the law for 2 reasons. 1, i have high moral standards and believe that i am to submit to authority in all circumstances, but for the second reason, because i am going through the hiring process now and dont want to have any type of criminal record, especially since it would most likely cost me a career in le.
              Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil because my GOD IS GREATER.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by screamneagle68 View Post
                globerry,

                I'm a little confused when you say you have the utmost respect for LUPD, but don't trust them. To me, respect & trust goes hand in hand, you can't have one without the other. I can tell that you are mature and responsible beyond your age...wish there were more young adults with these attributes. I completely agree that you should be able to defend yourself on and off campus, but I do also believe that laws have their task & purpose, even when we don't always agree with them. I'd say that the threat risk is much greater when you go off of campus.

                I also agree that if an entity forbids me to protect myself and relinguish my firearm, they had better provide security measures to ensure my safety. Each state has laws that indicate where you can carry and where you can't. Courtrooms are a no-brainer as LEO's are always there.

                I am not advocating to break the law, but if you are really worried about your security on a college campus, you'll have to weigh the risk and repercussions of getting caught carrying concealed. There's a saying that many live by : I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

                I respect the police (most of em anyway). Heck, so far, I've dedicated 31 years of my life to LE.
                I also realize that response time can be crucial in active shooter incidents. Most cops understand that there's no insult intended when one repeats the old adage: "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away." Add to that the ruling by the Supreme Court that basically says the police have no liability for failing to protect you (in most circumstances).

                If a citizen can be trusted with such a responsibility off campus, what evidence is there to suggest they suddenly can'tbe trusted on campus? Answer: None.

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                • #23
                  exactly. i can be trusted with a gun everywhere, or no where. with obvious exceptions such as courthouse etc
                  Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil because my GOD IS GREATER.

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                  • #24
                    While I agree one should be able to carry while on campus or just about anywhere else, unfortunately the institutions have implemented laws against it. It will forever be a hard if not impossible sell to administrators in academic settings that would allow concealed carry.

                    As for the LUPD on campus I do understand that sometimes they may not be stellar, it's the same in any profession..we all have bad apples and the good ones deal with the tarnished image that the bad apples create.

                    BTW..thanks for initiating a great discussion. It always brings out great points of views from many different perspectives. We all can always take away something from a good debate.

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                    • #25
                      Yea man While I have my opinion and I stick to it, it is really good to hear and LEARN from others perspectives on the issue. I can understand the other POV from a LEO side but still have the opinion i do as a student.
                      Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil because my GOD IS GREATER.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Wow!! This is certainly one of the better threads I've seen lately. Living proof that reasonable, intelligent people can indeed have a discussion. Over the years, I've been on numerous college campuses, and had the opportunity to meet some wonderful, creative, dedicated people. It's equally true, that many of these truly wonderful people have about as much business carrying a firearm, as I do trying to play the Cello in a symphony orchestra. While the safe and proficient use of a firearm is certainly a teachable skill, constant practice and training are required to keep the required skills sharp. Back to the Cello. It's entirely true that the most brilliant and talented instructors could devote their best efforts to making me a proficient Cello player, and fail in the effort. It's equally true that many academics , including some students, simply aren't cut out to be carrying firearms.

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                        • #27
                          I think the majority of students that would carry a weapon would do the extra things to be somewhat proficient with them. As a firearms instructor and cop, I fully agree with the statement that it takes constant practice and training to keep skills sharp. It's been pointed out before that in every area there are bad apples, and this would be no different. I would be lying to myself if I didn't expect some problems with college kids carrying weapons, but I believe the benefits far outweigh the alternative. No system is perfect. I think as law enforcement officers we are used to dealing with the criminals and forget that the majority of the population are very good people that we NEED on our side. Not to disagree or put you down PhilipCal on your Cello comment, but that comes with everything. Some people that are cops simply aren't cut out to be cops either... (Not speaking about you.) I would LOVE to see more stringent training for us as law enforcement etc, and this would ideally hold true with people that want to carry a firearm.
                          "I sometimes wish that people would put a little more emphasis upon the observance of the law than they do upon its enforcement."
                          -Calvin Coolidge

                          "Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they can't get it wrong." - Unk

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Agreed Phil. Ive heard a ton of people, some my age and some 40+, say that they want a gun, but would never use it. They only want to use it as a scare tactic. I would never let someone know I had a gun until they were looking down the barrel.Using it as a scare tactic is only going to prove you don't mean what you say, and then lead to the perp stealing your gun and using it. I mean seriously, how dignifying would it be to be shot with your own gun? Granted, this is not in the same context as college students necessarily, but the principal you bring up applies. While I DO NOT want ANYONE who doesn't know how to handle a gun and when to use it, regardless of age or occupation, I still want some heat on me at all times.
                            Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil because my GOD IS GREATER.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              With all due respect Phillip...

                              It's equally true that many academics , including some students, simply aren't cut out to be voting responsibly and intelligently.
                              It's equally true that many academics , including some students, simply aren't cut out to be practicing free speech responsibly and intelligently.

                              All rights have limitations. I simply don't agree that one of those limitations should be... no guns on campus.
                              Some night classes are taught at satellite locations that may be in high crime areas.
                              Some universities are located adjacent to high crime areas.
                              Not every campus has a Utopian society living within its confines.
                              Rape and sex crimes are commonly under-reported crimes on or near campus. Knowing this, I'd personally prefer that my daughters have a high degree of self reliance and have encouraged them to develop the skills and adopt the responsibilities associated with concealed carry.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by SgtScott31 View Post
                                I'm not saying it's the way it should be, but in my opinion, I just don't see why it's necessary to arm students. Of the millions of students and thousands of universities that have never had a problem with a firearm-related incident, should a couple of isolated events push states to let anyone carry anytime at their educational institutions? My opinion, NO.
                                Regardless, I don't let anyone restrict my ability to protect myself. I don't care where I'm at or what sign is posted. I have the right to protect myself and I exercise that right. I don't let silly laws come in my way.

                                However, with the push of this legislation (in TX anyways) leaves me with one question: Who's rights are more important? Property owners or private citizens?

                                Originally posted by LPD003 View Post
                                To add a bit more, recently our local high schools didn't allow me to carry a weapon on their property while off-duty... I'm sure they'd wish that rule wasn't in effect if my weapon was needed and their lives were in danger. Hell, if I'm not carrying, I want some dude beside me to have one if some wack job comes in blazing... to say you wouldn't is ludicrous.
                                It's none of their business what you're carrying on you off duty.

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