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  • coach1299
    replied
    Originally posted by Vigilis View Post
    The recent tragedy at Ft. Hood and some of the comments about it here on the board got me thinking. Imagine there's an active shooter and there's an off duty cop/plainclothes cop/ccw there who returns fire. When the police respond, they'd just encounter two people shooting at each other. How do they tell who is the aggressor and who is the defender? What would you do?

    Also, if one is the off duty/plainclothes/ccw, what would you do to let the police know that you're the good guy, assuming that it's still an active gunfight?
    That's been a big question for as long as I can remember. Some of my academy and in service training addressed this issue to bring awareness to uniformed officers and good guys in plain clothes, but there is no perfect solution. The concept of "avoiding reflective response" was geared towards getting plain clothes officers to consider the totality of the circumstances before pulling a gun. Here are some other helpful tips about this subject: Know the color of the day and wear it while in plain clothes if it applies to your area. Keep badge/ID or shield/ID on a (breakaway only) chain around neck to allow increased ID exposure while handling gun, or other method of displaying ID without hands while holding gun. The use and recognition of certain terms and phrases (some taught to be specifically used in these situations) that are generally generic to police. Plain clothes officers should be ready to quickly and clearly verbalize who they are along with anything else verbal and or visual that is likely to persuade uniformed officers that they are cops. Uniformed cops also need to be able to do a quick analysis of the plain clothes officer and be able to quickly ask some questions (when possible) that the plain clothes cop should be able to answer, an example might be "whose the commanding officer at the county police academy", something like that or similar that most area cops should know, while keeping in mind that federal and other out of the area officers might not know. This is where advanced notification comes into place. Some plain clothes operations are obviously top secret and the officers have to take into consideration that they are more likely to be mistaken when conducting secret plain clothes operations on someone else's turf. Notifying the resident PD in advance is essential whenever possible when working in plain clothes. Beyond those tips which are just things to keep in mind, it comes down to both the experience and instincts of both the unformed and plain clothes officers involved, but nothing is etched in stone in these situations. Little things like the type of gun, holster, spare ammo, vest and type of vest if one is involved, tactics used, lingo, maybe type of vehicle involved, other equipment like cuffs and radio or lack of it can all be factors used to paint a picture. Above all and most important is that the officer in plain clothes is at a greater disadvantage and should try to avoid these situations at all costs, and carries the burden of communicating who he/she is. The UNIFORMED OFFICERS ARE ALWAYS IN CHARGE, regardless of jurisdiction, rank,status, seniority, or anything else. THE UNIFORM GUY ALWAYS HAS THE LEAD CALL and all plain clothes officers must comply. "Don't you know who I am?" spoken in a commanding voice from a plain clothes detective lieutenant doesn't cut it, even if he's dealing with a rookie in uniform. THE UNIFORMED GUY WILL BE THE BOSS IN THAT situation until all other factors are safely established. Avoidance, some training, experience in both uniform and plain clothes, and common sense will ultimately be the determining factor. Be safe!
    .

    Leave a comment:


  • DARE_SUPPORTER
    replied
    Originally posted by biw371 View Post
    It's real simple. We shoot the one that is holding his gun canted sideways.
    You Know why they shoot it sideways?????























    Because that is how it came in the box......

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  • hemicop
    replied
    In the interst of OPSEC, moderators, please delete these posts!!!!!

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  • Gunhand
    replied
    Do my best to end the engagement before the Ro's arrive/ If cant or dont, drop my gun and follow thier commands. Once ID'ed give intel.

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  • Michigan
    replied
    Originally posted by DeputyDuc View Post
    And even then you never know. If you recall the Trolly Square mall shooting in UT, despite the off-duty's wife describing him to the dispatcher for just this reason that information was not relayed to the ROs. Scary thought. And though it worked out that mis/noncommunication is unacceptable.
    agreed. It's a catch 22.

    Leave a comment:


  • DeputyDuc
    replied
    Originally posted by Michigan View Post
    I or someone I yell at would be telling 911 dispatch that the ugly guy in the jeans and t-shirt shooting the glock is a COP, and to please refrain from shooting me.
    And even then you never know. If you recall the Trolly Square mall shooting in UT, despite the off-duty's wife describing him to the dispatcher for just this reason that information was not relayed to the ROs. Scary thought. And though it worked out that mis/noncommunication is unacceptable.

    Leave a comment:


  • grog18b
    replied
    Originally posted by biw371 View Post
    It's real simple. We shoot the one that is holding his gat canted sideways.
    You weren't supposed to tell people that! I fixed it for you.

    Leave a comment:


  • ShantyIrish
    replied
    I assumed that would be understood....along with all the propper notifications/descriptions to 911 as I'm about to take or taking action.....

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  • Michigan
    replied
    Originally posted by ShantyIrish View Post
    I'd be the guy proning myself out with my shield/ID in my hand not my weapon....
    I assume this is after the bad guy is no longer a threat.... If so, then I agree. My Badge would be in one hand, gun in the other. I or someone I yell at would be telling 911 dispatch that the ugly guy in the jeans and t-shirt shooting the glock is a COP, and to please refrain from shooting me.

    Uniformed officers are ALWAYS the boss after they arrive on scene. They have to determine who is good and who is bad. If they say, "drop your gun and eat dirt", I will be dropping my gun and eating dirt. They can confirm my identity after they get everything sorted out.

    Leave a comment:


  • ShantyIrish
    replied
    I'd be the guy proning myself out with my shield/ID in my hand not my weapon....

    Leave a comment:


  • biw371
    replied
    Originally posted by Vigilis View Post
    The recent tragedy at Ft. Hood and some of the comments about it here on the board got me thinking. Imagine there's an active shooter and there's an off duty cop/plainclothes cop/ccw there who returns fire. When the police respond, they'd just encounter two people shooting at each other. How do they tell who is the aggressor and who is the defender? What would you do?

    Also, if one is the off duty/plainclothes/ccw, what would you do to let the police know that you're the good guy, assuming that it's still an active gunfight?
    It's real simple. We shoot the one that is holding his gun canted sideways.

    Leave a comment:


  • grog18b
    replied
    Originally posted by Vigilis View Post
    The recent tragedy at Ft. Hood and some of the comments about it here on the board got me thinking. Imagine there's an active shooter and there's an off duty cop/plainclothes cop/ccw there who returns fire. When the police respond, they'd just encounter two people shooting at each other. How do they tell who is the aggressor and who is the defender? What would you do?

    Also, if one is the off duty/plainclothes/ccw, what would you do to let the police know that you're the good guy, assuming that it's still an active gunfight?
    The flaw in your question is the amount of time between engaging the threat, and response of law enforcement.

    Most shootouts (not on a battlefield) don't last over a minute, regardless of what you see on TV and in movies.

    Active shooter training dictates first responding officers address the threat. If you are already there when the shooter is in progress, you engage the threat as quickly and efficiently as possible, EXACTLY like the officer that responded to the Fort Hood shooting. She did an awesome job, I hope she is better soon. I'm sure there were plenty of people there responding at the same time the shooting was going on, and we don't know where all those rounds went yet.

    If you don't know what "engage the threat" means... It means you shoot that threat center mass, or in the head in the case of possible body armor, and stop the action of the shooter as soon as possible.

    How would I let responding officers know I was the good guy? I'd show them my retired badge and ID when they arrived, and give them a written statement to add to their report. The odds of them arriving and the incident still being active around here are way low. Read below.

    Contrary to popular belief... First responding officers to a shooting incident are responsible for determining who the threat is. They do not go in firing at anyone with a gun. It's part of the job. Do accidents happen? Yes. Especially with under cover officers, and officers from other agencies. That's why it is important to determine your target, and not walk in and shoot a witness that just wrestled the gun from the real shooter.

    Leave a comment:


  • mikeymedic
    replied
    inne-mini-minnie-moe.

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  • SgtCHP
    replied
    Issues such as that cause stress for all involved. It is incumbant on the off duty officer to make himself known.

    Frankly, that is why I become a better witness than an active participant - unless absolutely necessary.

    Rather to receive accolades for doing what can be done off duty than to receive the accolades over the deep abyss prepared for my final resting place.

    Leave a comment:


  • IBTP711
    replied
    1. Thats one thing that you have to worry about carrying in plain clothes or ccw so if you do shoot choose wisely because you may end up being a victim yourself.
    2. Someone else may answer but thats a little OPSEC for me.

    Leave a comment:

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