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  • Is this is a criminal or civil issue?

    So first off my bad to not doing enough due diligence prior to purchasing. Anyway, went and looked at and bought a motorcycle from a guy, thinking it was a 98 year model (he even wrote it on the bill of sale etc). Well I decided (after the fact) to do a VIN check on it and it came back as a 92. So I contact him about it and he says mistakes happen etc and doesn't care to rectify it. Now, he flat out lied on his ad for it and on the paper work for it that he gave over and now is basically ignoring me.

    Is anything he did here illegal or would this be a civil issue? Not sure if it would help but I did a criminal check on him and turns out he's currently on probation so would contacting his probation officer be an idea? Thanks in advance.

  • #2
    Civil issue....
    The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

    "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

    "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Bdub84 View Post
      So first off my bad to not doing enough due diligence prior to purchasing. Anyway, went and looked at and bought a motorcycle from a guy, thinking it was a 98 year model (he even wrote it on the bill of sale etc). Well I decided (after the fact) to do a VIN check on it and it came back as a 92. So I contact him about it and he says mistakes happen etc and doesn't care to rectify it. Now, he flat out lied on his ad for it and on the paper work for it that he gave over and now is basically ignoring me.

      Is anything he did here illegal or would this be a civil issue? Not sure if it would help but I did a criminal check on him and turns out he's currently on probation so would contacting his probation officer be an idea? Thanks in advance.
      Might be a probation violation. Usually probation mandates that one "obey all laws" and this could be interpreted as meaning civil as well as criminal laws. To prove violations of probation, a court only needs to find a preponderance of evidence to support the charge (not proof beyond a reasonable doubt).

      I'd also check with your local DMV. If he signed sales documents under oath claiming the year of the vehicle was different than he knew was correct, he could be charged with perjury.
      "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

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      • #4
        Originally posted by pulicords View Post
        Might be a probation violation. Usually probation mandates that one "obey all laws" and this could be interpreted as meaning civil as well as criminal laws. To prove violations of probation, a court only needs to find a preponderance of evidence to support the charge (not proof beyond a reasonable doubt).

        I'd also check with your local DMV. If he signed sales documents under oath claiming the year of the vehicle was different than he knew was correct, he could be charged with perjury.
        If he was dumb enough to ADMIT any of the above, you might have a violation. (and if he is dumb enough, then run with it)

        It sounds like it is the 'he said, she said' scenario though......neither DMV nor Probation is going to touch that in most areas, as there is zero proof other than the complaining parties word.
        The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

        "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

        "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by LA DEP View Post
          It sounds like it is the 'he said, she said' scenario though......neither DMV nor Probation is going to touch that in most areas, as there is zero proof other than the complaining parties word.
          I've filed a number of perjury cases on felons with significant records based upon signed DMV forms being submitted. DMV criminal investigators take great pleasure in working these cases when they involve real bad guys and their enthusiasm is shared by parole and probation officers, prosecutors and judges.

          A perjury conviction isn't just good for the potential time it earns, defendants find it really harms their testimony in future cases. It's a gift that keeps on giving!
          "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

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          • #6
            In the U.S. Civil matter, with the possible ramifications touched on. Canadian Law could differ. If this took place in the Province of British Columbia, you'll need to check the laws of that Province.

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            • #7
              Civil matter. In order to get a judgement of any willful misconduct, you are going to have to prove that he knew the bike was a 92 instead of a 98. Did he lie or was he simply mistaken?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by LA DEP View Post

                It sounds like it is the 'he said, she said' scenario though......neither DMV nor Probation is going to touch that in most areas, as there is zero proof other than the complaining parties word.
                Except he's got the bill of sale with "1998" on it, so he's got some proof beyond verbal.

                It will most likely be a civil issue, but its possible that it could be covered under a fraud statute in your jurisdiction. You might do better contacting a local PD than asking a mostly-American police forum.
                I miss you, Dave.
                http://www.odmp.org/officer/20669-of...david-s.-moore

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by CruiserClass View Post
                  Except he's got the bill of sale with "1998" on it, so he's got some proof beyond verbal.

                  It will most likely be a civil issue, but its possible that it could be covered under a fraud statute in your jurisdiction. You might do better contacting a local PD than asking a mostly-American police forum.
                  Even that isnt 'proof'......all the other guy has to say is 'sorry....I really thought it was a 1998....I guess I dont know motorcycles that well'

                  And to the perjury issue with DMV, it would have to be on a DMV form, not a generic bill of sale.
                  The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

                  "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

                  "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'm in Vancouver, Washington...so all of your advice helps . As for the bill of sale, it's actually a DMV form. has a form number on it and the revision date and says Department of Motor Vehicles and has their headquarters address etc.

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                    • #11
                      You might have something to take to DMV then......BUT, all he has to say to the DMV is 'sorry....thought it was a 98'........

                      Now, if you were to have neutral witnesses to him saying that he knew it wasn't a 98 model, then you might have a better case.....as it is, all you have is him admitting that he made a mistake, and that he isn't willing to correct it.
                      The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

                      "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

                      "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        OK, thank you. Since this form is actually from the DMV, is it considered a government form? So if he did in fact flat out lie, it would be considered perjury?

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                        • #13
                          It could be.....depends on the laws in WA......

                          is there some really fine print at the bottom of the form, saying something along the lines of 'I swear under the penalty of perjury that to the best of my knowledge the above is true and correct blah blah blah'?

                          BUT, you are going to have to be able to prove that he knew it wasnt a 1998 when he sold it to you, and not just that he himself didnt check it out and realize that it was a 1992 model. There is a huge difference between making a mistake (and not owning up to it) and full on perjury.
                          The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

                          "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

                          "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            More along the lines of falsification and/or a registration/title violation, but again, the problem is proving that he KNEW what the correct year of the bike was and still put down the wrong year.

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                            • #15
                              What is the difference in value since it is a 1992 and not a 1998?

                              I can't speak for Washington, but if he knowingly misrepresented the item to be something of higher value where I am it might fall under:
                              criminal simulation
                              theft by deception

                              The value difference would play a big part as to whether it would even be bothered with criminally. The higher the fraud value the better the chance of interest.

                              If that doesn't fly you can always file a small claims action on him. Probably cost you less than $20 to file and you guys can argue it in front of a judge. Should be easy to demonstrate the actual year vs what he filled out.

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