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Probable cause // future course of action questions

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  • rubyrose
    replied
    UPDATE: The 911 call I didn't make

    The 911 call I didn't make

    Ok, before you go on reading, ask yourself: do you want to hear this story or not? If not, then stop right now. If you keep reading, don't complain about my wasting your time.

    Last night around 11 pm or so I heard a lot of shouting on the street outside, with the F-word tossed in about every fourth word. I looked out the window, phone in hand, watching to see what would happen. I don't like to call unless it looks like the verbal fight could erupt into physical violence.

    I saw a young man, most likely in his 20s or early 30s, outside of a very expensive-looking car with several people inside. He kept swearing at them. "F-you I can say anything I want. F-you nobody listens. F-you. F-you," etc. Then he started walking away in a huff.

    A couple of people from inside of the car got out. Concerned that they were going to start swinging, I punched 9, then 1, then 1 and was about to hit "talk" when I heard those people speaking in soft voices and making conciliatory gestures. Ok, I decided this was a "wait and see" situation, and I cancelled the dial. From the tone of their voices and their body language it seemed pretty clear no guns would go off.

    Still, he was shouting. I couldn't hear what his antagonists were saying, but I could figure it from his answers. He said he didn't care about the police surveillance camera down the street, to which they kept pointing. He didn't care is because he's on the side of the PD, he said. He didn't care because he doesn't break the law.

    He said, "I know why those cameras are here. I know what you are doing, and it's wrong!" He had a right to speak his opinion and a right to be heard.

    I originally figured him to be the trouble-maker, but it turns out he was actually the decent one. Apparently this gentleman is from out-of-state, and he was visiting family down the street. At some point he expressed his opinion about drug dealing as a means of making a living. They weren't happy with what he said.

    Among the people who had gathered on the corner were several of the young men I had suspected to be involved in the drug business here.

    Ultimately the man stopped shouting but he would not get into the car. He turned down the street and just kept walking. The car followed him, but soon they were out of sight.

    I got two things out of this incident. One is confirmation of my suspicions about who is involved in the business. The other is affirmation that even drug dealers have decent, honest family members.

    Of course, as he said, he "would never be a snitch." So he's not going to report his family to the police. While one would wish otherwise, it's understandable. One's ties to one's family are hard to break.

    Meanwhile, business across the street has died down to a slow trickle.

    Night before last my street friend Wanda asked me for another ride home. She was across the street, sitting alone on the porch of the property in question. Wanda's sister lives in the other side of the building, a side-by-side duplex, so she's over there a lot.

    Earlier in the evening someone had tossed a big glass bottle into the street, and it shattered right in an area that anyone making a right turn would have to drive over. Because of the heavy traffic on the street, I decided not to try to clean it up myself, as I didn't want to get run over. So I called 311 -- our "one call to city hall" number. Lo and behold, a half hour later environmental services was out to sweep it up. Quite honestly, I was shocked that they came out so quickly. I wasn't expecting them until at least the next day.

    Meanwhile, of course, several cars had run over the glass. I have no idea how many (if any) tires ended up with slow leaks from punctures. Maybe they all had really good, puncture-resistant tires. Who knows. Regardless, the glass was a hazard.

    I was out talking to the environmental services guy when Wanda called me over. At first I was confused because I thought it was the drug-dealing woman I've complained about who was calling my name. Then I realized who it was, and I walked over to find out what she wanted.

    Just as I did so, the tenants on that side of the building drove up. Wanda explained to me what she needed. I hesitated a bit (Wanda is already in to me for $50+ borrowed dollars, and I had stopped doing things for her, knowing I'd never see a penny of it), but decided I could possibly get information from her, so why not. Told Wanda I needed to get my keys and wallet, and I would be back.

    While we were in the car I let Wanda go on for a bit about her problems, gave her a few pointers, and then asked her if she knew the people living next door to her sister.

    "Yeah, I be knowing them a long time," she said.

    I know I can't pump her or she will freeze up and won't say a thing. So I left it to her to take it whatever direction she wanted.

    Wanda said, "She was mad at me for talking to you. She asked me, what was that lady doing over here?

    "I said I ASKED her over. I told her 'She's giving me a ride. Miss [name] is a good person. She helps me out a lot. She don't bother nobody. You don't bother her, she won't bother you'."

    Wanda went on with that, saying the same thing different ways. Don't know if she was saying that because that's what she did in fact tell the other woman, or whether she was saying it because she thought it was what I wanted to hear. Or both.

    Probably both. Wanda depends on me for occasional good deeds and giving this woman a reason to go after me could mean she'd lose her benefactor. She also has to keep her benefactor happy with her.

    Anyway, I grinned just imagining her saying that to this woman, who no doubt suspects me of being the one causing her trouble, since, after all, I am often out on my porch observing everybody.

    I love front porches.

    ***
    Tonight is our bike patrol. That will give me a chance to talk to the Sector LT and the CPO about what's going on, to the extent they can tell me.
    Last edited by rubyrose; 08-20-2008, 01:52 PM.

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  • rubyrose
    replied
    Sorry, grump, have no idea what you said.
    Picture 84.jpg

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  • grumpyirishman
    replied
    Yippee !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Originally posted by rubyrose View Post
    Grumpy Scotswoman officially ignores Grumpy Irishman as she has not seen one word contributing anything of any value on any of his posts. Ever. In response to ANYONE.
    Last edited by grumpyirishman; 03-03-2010, 02:56 PM.

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  • rubyrose
    replied
    And now...

    observed her this morning putting the plates back on the car -- but tying them on with shoestrings.

    I supposed that is intended to make it easier to take them off and put back on. Can't see how. It seemed to take quite a bit of time for her to make that work.

    Ha. Guess she doesn't know about battery driven electric screw drivers.

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  • rubyrose
    replied
    I found out today that a car with no plates that is visible from the street can be ticketed. That's why we were told to report vehicles without plates.

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  • rubyrose
    replied
    Well, our citizens' patrol was advised to report vehicles without license plates.

    Here you have to have a special permit to have a car sitting on your property without plates. At least, that is my recollection.

    And how could it possibly be legal to use a LP not assigned to the vehicle? What's the point of requiring license plates if you can have someone else's plate on your car?

    Originally posted by juicesnn4e2
    since when is it against the law to remove YOUR plates on YOUR car in YOUR driveway? since when is it against the law to take a car off the road? to switch plates?
    Last edited by rubyrose; 08-19-2008, 08:23 AM.

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  • rubyrose
    replied
    Thanks!

    Originally posted by Guams View Post
    No plates on a vehicle sitting in a driveway, in and of itself, is not illegal. The moment that vehicle is operated on the roadway is when it becomes illegal.

    Now, considering the fact that there seems to be a vast amount of knowledge regarding this vehicle, having false registrations plates on the vehicle will create the probable cause... to stop the vehicle. However; this probable cause doesn't extend to allow the officers to search the vehicle. Searching the vehicle can come from either A) Consent (though highly unlikely), B) Search incident to arrest (maybe the driver or any passengers have a warrant), or C) plain view (considering they're dumb, they might be dumb enough to leave something visible).

    The ability to get into that vehicle will be determined solely by the officers that stop the vehicle and how they conduct the traffic stop.

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  • jchughes05
    replied
    +1... I agree with Guams. I would stop the car and see where it goes from there.

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  • Guams
    replied
    Originally posted by rubyrose View Post
    Sitting on my porch this evening, enjoying the night air.

    Drug dealing neighbor comes out and...

    removes the plates from her car.

    It is sitting there in the driveway with no plates.

    I'll bet she's been stopped a lot. Sector LT said he'd sent word out to patrol about the car and the activity.

    Of course, no plates is also illegal. And if she puts OTHER plates on, well...that's probable cause.

    Right?

    She is really dumb.
    No plates on a vehicle sitting in a driveway, in and of itself, is not illegal. The moment that vehicle is operated on the roadway is when it becomes illegal.

    Now, considering the fact that there seems to be a vast amount of knowledge regarding this vehicle, having false registrations plates on the vehicle will create the probable cause... to stop the vehicle. However; this probable cause doesn't extend to allow the officers to search the vehicle. Searching the vehicle can come from either A) Consent (though highly unlikely), B) Search incident to arrest (maybe the driver or any passengers have a warrant), or C) plain view (considering they're dumb, they might be dumb enough to leave something visible).

    The ability to get into that vehicle will be determined solely by the officers that stop the vehicle and how they conduct the traffic stop.

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  • rubyrose
    replied
    Update!!!!!!!!

    Sitting on my porch this evening, enjoying the night air.

    Drug dealing neighbor comes out and...

    removes the plates from her car.

    It is sitting there in the driveway with no plates.

    I'll bet she's been stopped a lot. Sector LT said he'd sent word out to patrol about the car and the activity.

    Of course, no plates is also illegal. And if she puts OTHER plates on, well...that's probable cause.

    Right?

    She is really dumb.

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  • rubyrose
    replied
    1) I'm going to die of old age. That doesn't make for a very interesting movie ending. Nobody here kills community activists, at least not for their activism.

    2) You can see it as a movie if you want. I have no control over the way you interpret what I say.

    3) If this was a movie I am playing out here, and I ended up dead, then it would be for real, wouldn't it, instead of a movie?

    In which case I want Kathy Najimy. Never heard of her? Well fine. She's a terrific BBW and a fine actress.

    Obviously you have had few encounters with people who are committed to helping their neighborhoods become better places to live. Ah, your life is so impoverished!

    Meanwhile I have work to do. I want to make the Mayor's visit to my streets in a few weeks a big success. Gotta work on the publicity, planning where we are going to go, getting people to turn out. Make sure the police Command Van gets in place as promised, so we can do some recruiting for our various volunteer positions. Get the word out so that people know he and his entire entourage of top administrators will be here so they can talk to them about what needs to be done (in addition to public safety issues). Showing him that our sector can pull a better turnout than any other.

    Oh and also arranging for the anti-gang task force to have a table, as well as one for a couple of grass-roots anti-violence organizations.

    And I have promised a photo-layout with pictures of our citizens' patrol to help with recruiting.

    Also I need to get together some more "My beautiful city" photos for my newspaper blog, to counteract the lies and misinformation posted by the suburban crank circle jerk cabal.

    Dull movie, that.

    Meanwhile...took a bike ride yesterday, had a lovely time, completely without incident.

    QUOTE=juicesnn4e2;1375613]Ruby, when we find you dead in your house with a bullet in the back of your head and your hands and feet tied up, who do you want to play you, in your lifetime movie that your writing out for yourself on this fourm?
    [/QUOTE]
    Last edited by rubyrose; 08-18-2008, 06:21 PM.

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  • rubyrose
    replied
    Since when did I say I expected the beat officer to do this investigative work?

    This is not the city of Atlanta. Thank god. You couldn't pay me to live in Atlanta. The airport alone is enough to drive one crazy, let alone the endless traffic and sprawl.

    This city has less than half the population of Atlanta and less than one-fifth the population of the metropolitan area. It also has neighborhood empowerment teams that bring together citizens, police, and other city administrative personnel to address public safety and quality of life concerns. Don't know if Atlanta has anything of the sort. Too bad if it doesn't.

    I'm not expecting the beat cop to do anything more than he CAN do. I was hoping for an arrest night before last, and I wanted to understand why that didn't happen. Rather than call up or email some hardworking folks who would be answering during their work time, when they have so much else to do, I posted here, since anyone posting responses here is doing so completely of their own free will and is taking the time to do so because, uhhh, they choose it.

    I wanted to know if the observations could amount to probable cause. The majority answer was NO. I rather expected that but I wanted to make sure. I don't want to go making complaints based on ignorance or partial knowledge. On the other hand, I don't want to make assumptions either.

    I got some good answers. There were also very useful suggestions made and explanations given.

    Also it was explained to me that the beat cop I saw doing the "fake" traffic stop was probably doing that on orders from narc or someone else higher up. Great. That means my hunch upon seeing that is correct -- something IS being done. So hooray for my PD.

    Thrown in with the helpful comments are the stupid, sarcastic, unhelpful ones I've come to expect here, because there always has to be SOMEONE or several people doing that. Ok, CHAFF: out. Wheat: in.

    BTW, early morning observations indicated to me that this business is spread around much farther than my neighbors across the street. Normally I am not on my porch early in the morning, but last night I was a bit insomniac, so when dawn came I sat on my porch just to enjoy the peace and quiet. (It's a very busy street, but quiet early in the morning and late at night.) Some things I saw this a.m. I have passed on to my several contacts (the Sector LT, a Crime Prevention Officer, and a Captain who supervises the midnight shift) indicate that many more of my neighbors are involved.

    This is no one-shot deal. As I have discussed with others working on this, there is a whole system running up and down the main street, and, now I see down the side street. Yes, I know this requires organized response and can't be accomplished with 911 calls.

    Ok, now I know there are lots of folks on this board who apparently detest involved citizens and, like grumpyirishman, love to make fun of them. I guess we are all supposed to just roll over and play dead when the criminals take over our streets.

    Well, enjoy your sarcasm. It has no effect on me.

    Meanwhile there is work to do.

    Originally posted by juicesnn4e2
    Ok first of all, you keep expecting the beat officer to do all this investigator work. If this was the city of Atlanta, I'd take your bs call and move on becuase i have 20 calls in the pending. When techinally needs to be done is this needs to get to the investigators and they need to do ... ehh too much info...... but you get what im saying.
    Last edited by rubyrose; 08-18-2008, 01:16 PM.

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  • rubyrose
    replied
    Grumpy Scotswoman officially ignores Grumpy Irishman as she has not seen one word contributing anything of any value on any of his posts. Ever. In response to ANYONE.

    Originally posted by grumpyirishman View Post
    rubyrose,
    Please DO NOT move to my jurisdiction; we already have plenty of folks like you wearing foil hats!!!!

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  • Name Taken
    replied
    I am mentally already in that "vehicle" that they keeping walk back and fourth to...how I got there...I wont tell...and yes it's legal.

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  • jchughes05
    replied
    We could use more tin foil hats up here.

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