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  • #16
    [QUOTE=EJB]
    Originally posted by FLPD698
    Aikido when practiced and used properly keeps you from having to roll around in the ground with your subject. Of course sometimes there’s no way to avoid wrestling someone to the ground.

    This is the whole idea when it comes to taking someone down. I see alot of people on here say take some kind of grappling and wrestling art. If I was a bg intent on getting into with a LEO I wouldn't be worrying about trying to get them into a submit hold or pinning them but I would be going after the gun, asp, spray whatever. I would also like to ask has anyone taken the classes with a full duty belt on and have someone try and get your equipment out as a bg would. Also if all you do is wrestling and grappling what happens when you have more than one perp you have to deal with. The whole idea is to NOT let somebody get that close and grappling will not let you do that. The other problem is that most do not practice enough, or long enough to get to that level, hence thats why most end up on the ground.

    But I will say some kind of training is better than nothing.

    this is true, however, there will come a time when sh*t happens and you end up on the ground. the nice thing is, as you said, they will be going for a weapon of yours if you get there...therefore they are offering you limbs for joint manipulation or a neck to choke if needed. IMO a good basic would be to get some simple kickboxing skills to at least be proficient for a punch or a peroneal strike.....a ground game for when it ends up there...and a judo/sambo type art to learn some throws and clinch work...that way all your bases are covered

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    • #17
      [QUOTE=bigpoppaproppy]
      Originally posted by EJB


      this is true, however, there will come a time when sh*t happens and you end up on the ground. the nice thing is, as you said, they will be going for a weapon of yours if you get there...therefore they are offering you limbs for joint manipulation or a neck to choke if needed. IMO a good basic would be to get some simple kickboxing skills to at least be proficient for a punch or a peroneal strike.....a ground game for when it ends up there...and a judo/sambo type art to learn some throws and clinch work...that way all your bases are covered
      Agreed, trying to have all your bases covered is the best thing. I guess my biggest problem is that most stop training IF they even had training at all. What you get in the academy is certainly not enough nor is reading a book or watching some videos. Practice, practice and more practice is what will keep you safe out there.

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      • #18
        [QUOTE=EJB]
        Originally posted by bigpoppaproppy
        Agreed, trying to have all your bases covered is the best thing. I guess my biggest problem is that most stop training IF they even had training at all. What you get in the academy is certainly not enough nor is reading a book or watching some videos. Practice, practice and more practice is what will keep you safe out there.
        yep

        most MMA academies will offer significant discounts to LEO's who train there too...great exercise, and important skills to have on the job IMO

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        • #19
          Check out Wing Chun and Chin NA. I've been taking these for a while now, and it's very practical to Law Enforcement.
          No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. GEN. George S. Patton

          Courage is fear holding on a minute longer.
          Gen George S. Patton

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          • #20
            Depending on where you live you are not likely to find an Aikido school. Another MA based on similar principles is Hapkido. They use similar techniques but add in kicks, blocks and strikes as well as some ground fighting. If you have a Tae Kwon Do school in your area many of those also teach Hapkido but it is not as advertised because TKD is much more popular.
            A Veteran is someone who at one point in their life wrote a blank check made payable to The United States of America, for an amount up to, and including their life. That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today, who no longer understand that fact!

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            • #21
              ive been training in taekwondo for 10 years but have messed around in some other martial arts too, the most effective for law enforcement that i have found is brazillian jiujitsu and weeping style jiujitsu

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              • #22
                Train in something!!

                Training in any style or MMA will give you an edge. However, be sure to train with what you will be presented with, guns, knives, etc. Also be sure to train with something that will teach you to retain your weapon as you there will always be at least one weapon in the fight. Also train in something that will train you under stress and exhaustion, you will appreciate it when the time to use that training comes. Ground fighting is essential, but for a cop fighting on the ground is a bad place to be. But knowing how to if you have to is a must. I'm partial to Krav, but train in something and have the cardio stamina to use it and your job will become alot safer! We can argue all day as to what form of fighting is the best, but in reality knowing something will give you the edge over knowing nothing, and you can take a little bitof something from everything.
                I recognize the badge of my office as a symbol of public faith, and I accept it as a public trust to be held so long as I am true to the ethics of the Police service. I will constantly strive to achieve these objectives and ideals, dedicating myself before God to my chosen profession...... Law Enforcement.

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                • #23
                  Aikido, MMA training, Krav maga....I've heard nothing but good things about all of these arts. Also heard alot of good things about Systema..russian MA. Personally, I think a mixture of several different styles and MMA training would be the most beneficial. Knowing stand up fighting as well as grappling is a good thing, plus knowing what will actually be useful on the street.
                  I disaprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. -Voltaire

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                  • #24
                    I think that ju jutsu is the proper martial art for LEO . Even if you are working in a prison or in street is not a good ideea for public to punch a nose in a conflict even the law says you just have the right to do this but i you are able to make an immobilisation using a ju jutsu procedure the men around would say : " well done ! thats a real olice officer"
                    P.S. Sorry for my poore english !

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                    • #25
                      If it comes down to trying to control someone in a violent encounter, a punch to the nose may not look as good as an armbar or wristlock etc, but you have to have a certain amount of opportunity and an opening to go for a more technical move. In a knock-down drag out fight, I will punch or use a hand strike without hesitation. I am not about to waste time or risk my own personal safety to look good. If there is backlash from it, so be it, but I'm not going to risk myself just to "look good for the camera".
                      I disaprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. -Voltaire

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                      • #26
                        i just wanted to say thanks to everyone with their helpful posts.
                        i've been looking into this sort of stuff.

                        it's helped me consider a lot of stuff in the martial arts areas.
                        anything that helps me go home at the end of the day.
                        "In a bacon-and-egg breakfast, the chicken is involved, but the pig is committed." - Brian Billick

                        Be that pig.

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                        • #27
                          Is not just for "good look at the camera" , in most cases you have to present your actions in front of judge , and if he says : " it was a typicall case of overeacting " is not your best day!

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                          • #28
                            If I can articulate the fact that a closed fist strike was necessary and appropriate (which I can ) and show that the level of force was appropriate, then I don't see what you are talking about. What's the difference between an armbar takedown facefirst into the ground and a strike? Maybe it's different for you, but I will do what is necessary. If I was justified, I have no problem. Besides what the Judge thinks doesn't really matter. The Jury is more important to convince I would think
                            I disaprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. -Voltaire

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                            • #29
                              yes , you are right ! But , don't you see we have only the judge , the jury is only in your system , lol !

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I really think highly of one new DVD, so highly in fact that I wrote a long review of it. I should mention up front, the guy who is in the DVD is not my teacher, nor my business partner; so this is not a case of student praises teacher. I should mention too that I have been in criminal justice my whole adult life (in California as a prosecutor and here in Taiwan as a consultant for the Ministry of Justice) and I would not make a b.s. recommendation regarding something I view to be as important as self defense/suspect control.

                                Respectfully,
                                Brian Kennedy


                                Review of Tim Cartmell’s Standing Grappling Escapes and Counters DVD
                                Reviewed by Brian L. Kennedy

                                Headlocks and bear hugs, chokes and tackles: you see them in back alleys and bars, jails and juvenile lockups, wherever fights occur in the real world. The reality is that most fights, street altercations or self defense situations; whatever phrase one wishes to use, will quickly end up in some kind of standing grappling situation. Tim Cartmell’s Standing Grappling Escapes and Counters DVD addresses that reality. And it addresses it with leverage based techniques that allow realistic practice against fully resisting opponents.
                                This DVD is outstanding. Although I can not claim to have “seen them all” in my 30 years of martial arts experience and my 20 years in criminal justice; I have seen a fair number of books, manuals, movies, videos and DVD dealing with “self defense”. The majority of them, I am sorry to say, can best be described as “formulas for disaster”. Mr. Cartmell’s DVD is on the contrary a formula for success. This is due in large part to the fact that leverage based techniques, which is what this DVD is devoted to, will work the same against any opponent, regardless of their size or strength. Although strikes maybe effective in escaping holds, core techniques should be based on leverage only, removing the unpredictability of the effects of shrikes.

                                Practicality and “Practice-ability”
                                What really makes this DVD so valuable is that the techniques are practical. Now that buzz word, “practical”, is often used in connection with defensive tactics and self defense techniques and it may or may not be true. But the techniques presented in this DVD are truly practical and you will not need to take my word for it or anyone else’s word for it. You will be able to see for your self how practical the techniques are because the techniques are also “practice-able”. That is a word I made up to describe the fact that the techniques taught in Mr. Cartmell’s DVD can be practiced full force in training against fully resisting opponents. The reason being, the techniques are grappling based, so if you have mats and training partners who can safely fall; then you have all you need to test these techniques for yourself.

                                Escape that haunting feeling
                                The nature of the techniques, that they can be practiced full speed and power against fully resisting opponents of different sizes and strengths, allows you to escape that “haunting feeling” that against a really big, strong, psycho guy—this move would not work. It is the bane of self defense techniques that they may look real fine in the book, look real good in the magazine or work like a charm when demonstrated by the teacher against a “helpful” crash test dummy, but in the clutch they do not work at all. The upshot being that many martial artists, or people just trying to get some self defense skills, often correctly feel that the techniques they learn will not work when you really need for the move to work. The techniques taught on this DVD will go a long way towards giving you confidence in your abilities and escape the haunting feeling that you will not be able to defend yourself when you have too.

                                What is covered in the DVD
                                As Mr. Cartmell says; this DVD will show you how to “deal with the most common attacks: head locks, body locks, grabs and tackles. This DVD covers the basic principles of base, proper application of leverage, methods of escaping from all types of standing holds as well as efficient methods of counter-attack. None of the techniques taught involve striking….There are no foot stomps, head butts, strikes to genital areas, poking the eyes or groin grabs on the DVD…All techniques taught are based on leverage.. The DVD covers the most important aspects of defense in great detail, including: the very important initial reaction to any type of grappling attack, the universal principles of leverage that will work regardless of you opponent’s size.
                                Counters and follow up techniques that will allow you to simply control or, if need be incapacitate your opponent, based on the situation. It includes thorough coverage of all major standing grappling attacks.”

                                Mr. Cartmell’s credentials
                                Tim Cartmell is a lineage holder in several systems of Chinese martial arts and a Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Mr. Cartmell is an Asian full-contact fighting champion, a submissions wrestling champion, two time winner of the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Pan American games, and is a seven time winner of the Copa Pacifica de Jiu Jitsu. He is the owner and head instructor at the Shen Wu Academy in southern California.
                                Beyond these considerable achievements, Mr. Cartmell has the ability to look at a system of martial arts and distill the core, the essence, of what makes that art function. He is then able to communicate this core essence to others. Put simply Mr. Cartmell is an outstanding analyst of martial arts and an outstanding teacher of martial arts. He is able to see the essence of a problem and communicate the solution in a way that is understandable to anyone. An example of this comes out in the DVD when Mr. Cartmell explains two essential points of grappling defense, which are the opponents “dead angles” and how your weight is sat in relation to the dead angles.

                                Production
                                The DVD is very well filmed. Mr. Cartmell is an articulate instructor who is at ease in front of the camera. There are reverse views of the techniques and there are text overlays which do an outstanding job of highlighting the key points of the technique.


                                Where to buy the DVD
                                The DVD is available directly from the Shen Wu Academy at this website:
                                http://www.shenwu.com/newProduct.htm
                                A clip of the DVD is available on YouTube at:
                                http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search


                                About the reviewer:
                                Brian L. Kennedy is a former Deputy District Attorney and currently works as a consultant for Taiwan’s Ministry of Justice. He started his study of Chinese martial arts in 1976. and is the co-author of Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey.

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