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Why Grappling Works (and others do not)


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  • Why Grappling Works (and others do not)

    Okay....FIRST The title I chose was just to get people to click on the thread...sorry


    I am a black belt it Korean TMA (traditional martial arts).
    I have 7 years of grappling experience (MMA, BJJ)

    I have be in LEO for only two years.

    Now to my point and explanation fo the thread title.

    It comes down to VERY VERY VERY SIMPLE logic.

    Why are grappling arts (wrestling, jiujitsu, judo --I'll call these "G.A." for short) waaaaay more effective?
    The same reason boxing/kickboxing is effective.

    Training in G.A. and boxing are done at 100% - Live training. I am not talking about cardio Tae Bo type of kickboxing and boxing fads. You "go" 100% in G.A. and boxing. You condition your body and know EXACTLY what works and what does not because you are training at the same level as you would in a real competition match/fight.

    Are there still rules......aaaaaaabsolutely. But to listen to a TMA guy say well....I'd just rip your throat out or bite you or eye gouge you. No...no you wouldn't. Why? Because the grappler is controling the fight and they too can bite, gouge, and rip.

    TMA train moves and never ever ever train at 100%. They can't. There are not spare throats, ribs, faces in the back store room to replace. EVERY, and I mean EVERY TMA fight I have seen that goes 100% ends up on the ground!!! It's a gravity thing...its going to happen - and besides, for LEO, that is where you want them to be - on the ground to control them and minimize injury to subject and officer.

    GA works best because you FEEL 100% power by the opponent on you and you FEEL 100% of your own power.

    Of course this will not END the fued between MMA(G.A.) vs. TMA. And I realize there will even be people on here saying the reason their sensei is not in the UFC is because he is tooooo deadly....whatever bro.

    Understand striking has its purpose - no doubt! But in LEO, that is going to cause more injury for both parties (an more paperwork for the supervisors)

    .....................or just ignore this whole post..........what do I know

  • #2
    I agree I want to take some classes but not much around here. It will look much better making an arrest by some graceful twist of the wrist and using their weight than doing some bruce lee round house and knocking their head off. You know someone will be filming that move.


    • #3
      Watching Joyce (Spelling may be off) Gracie grappel with guys twice his size and getting them to submit should tell you something about the effectiveness of grappeling.

      Most of our physical encounters involve some type of grappeling because we are attempting to gain control over our subjects and not punch or kick the snot out of them.

      Saty Safe

      If I could keep one heart from breaking, I shall not live in vain. If I could ease one life the aching or cool one pain; or lift a fainting robin unto it's nest again, I shall not live in vain. Emily Dickinson


      • #4
        Darth, I couldn't have said it better myself. I am a Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt and hold rankings in other "TMA"s as well. Training like you fight makes all the difference! Grappling arts are "Camera Friendly" as well, a subtle pressure point activation or cranking a joint 1/4 inch past it's normal range is less dramatic on film then kicking or punching someone in the head. I've had the honor of rolling with Royce Gracie, Dan Severn and Frank Shamrock they always amaze me and I always learn something new. Keep training and remember to train with your gear. Weapons retention adds a whole new demension to grappling!
        It's not the size of the dog in the fight, It's the size of the fight in the dog!"


        • #5
          No arguments here, but my sensei is not in the UFC because he is tooooo deadly
          Can you say DYNASTY? Go Patriots!


          • #6
            I skipped the black belt and went to expert pistol. lol. I use some of the basics I was taught in the Marines. I took Kendo, Kendo is the Way of the Sword, it is the art of Japanese Samurai Swordsmanship. I did it for the discipline. I havent done it for years but I am looking to get back into it.
            "I am the guy that keeps Mister Dead in his pocket." -'Mad' Max Rockatansky

            "An Englewood Ranger is no stranger to Danger.." -Unk

            Good Night Chesty Where Ever You Are.

            A Good Friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you in the cell saying, "That was Awesome."

            Second City Cop


            • #7

              Wow, you have had some great experiences for sure. I wish there were some schools around here that specialize in grappling for cops (w/gear, etc...)

              I get jealous every time I see places like this - watch videos .

              Thanks for the support guys!


              • #8
                All these replies are right on. I think we pretty much agree that there are lessons and tools to be learned from each and every style of fighting, martial arts, grappling etc... mental and physical lessons. The overall focus should be on training for reality, train like you fight and you will fight like you train. To use a recently popular term Mixed Martial Arts is what we should be training. I'm not saying like UFC, Pride, or K1, but combining effective techniques from several styles.

                I'm a 4 year Krav-Maga and MMA fighter. I'll borrow, steal techniques from any style as long as they are effective for reality. I've been a police officer for five years now. My third month as a cop me and another officer had a bang up all out brawl with a berzerk monster on crack. I got my *** kicked and the other cop wound up in the hospital (bad guy did too!!!). That night I promised... NEVER AGAIN... that is where the mindset must come from. It's Bushido, it's primal, it's a violent discipline that requires a commitment beyond simple work outs or fitness.

                This is where we live gentlemen we live in that mindset... we have to in order to survive that next fight, with guns, with sticks or knives, down to bare hands... we survive

                Fight Hard... Stay Safe
                Couple years ago at a clinic with Bas Rutten (if you don't know the name, he's a MMA legend, UFC, Pride, Pancrase) In his own words[dutch accent]

                "so I train deez guys in Los Angeles... one of dem say he is Ninja fighter... I say ok... I seen dem guyz on TV... I teach rear naked choke from grapple... ninja guy sayz ""you choke me, I gouge out your eye with finger"" I sayz... ok... let's try dis out... I put ninja guy in choke and say... ok, you gouge my eye, I'll squeeze twist and pull... break your neck, I get eye patch like pirate... Ninja guy getz funeral in his pajamas!! end of lesson
                Last edited by Split50; 09-21-2005, 01:01 AM. Reason: good story


                • #9
                  Fight smart

                  I havenot been on the forum for a while. Everybody is pretty much right on. My opinion is that you play the way you train. I also believe that grappling has different ranges to impliment. Everytime you put someone in a control hold it is jujitsu. Stand up jujitsu enables you to have options when the hold is resisted by the subject. you can go into flows, throws, takedowns, or disengagement. The ground is the last resort due to limitations such as multiple subjects. Jujitsu is also very valuable in gun retention and take-away. All other arts increase your % of survival and give you options that other officers do not have. Eskrima enables you to use impact weapons in an effective way and enables you to strike effectively an also to defend effectively. Keep distance on a truley combative subject if possible and if you are in grappling range be efficient and quick.
                  Barry (Okusandan Aiki-jujitsu, 2nd degree black belt Doce Pares Escrima, Blue belt Machado BJJ, and JKD practitioner/ 31 year veteran in Military Police and California Highway Patrol-Road Dog).


                  • #10
                    Efective martial arts doesnt stop with jui-jitsu and judo and such, you also have one of the most common practices of law enforcement....aikido.

                    I have trained in Haganah and judo. I would have to say that Haganah isnt going to be very useful unless you want a lawsuit crammed in your rear. Judo...yeah...its ok, but mostly for competition. Dont misunderstand me though...judo CAN rough someone up a bit.

                    I plan to study aikido in about a month or so because I will be moving to an area that offers the classes.
                    "Americans sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men and women stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell


                    • #11
                      I realize this post is a lil old, but I am currently in Army Combatives Level I, its a relatively new program, and essentially is the Army's version of BJJ (in the upper levels Muay Thai), and I coudlnt agree with you guys more, it makes you a much better soldier(officer). I have only been doing it now for about 7 weeks, but I already feel so much more in control of my body and confidence should things heat up.
                      Question for the group though, ive heard at regular police academys you guys coversome basic hand to hand comabt stuff, but when actually on the force (be it local, state, federal etc) are there courses through your agency that allow you to practice on a regular basis? Because in my experience thus far, it seems that Im limited to learn what I can depending on what dojo, gym, instructor happe s to live in my 20 mile radius. Im fortunate to learn Army Combatives for free only because every soldier over the next two years is supposed to be required to complete level I.


                      • #12
                        80% of the time i go for a grappling technique, in my case jiu-jitsu, but if i don


                        • #13
                          The only martial art that doesn't work is the one you do not train in. There is no "Best" and "worst" martial art. There is only a best and worst martial artist.
                          You have no right to not be offended.-Neal Boortz


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Centurion44
                            The only martial art that doesn't work is the one you do not train in. There is no "Best" and "worst" martial art. There is only a best and worst martial artist.


                            10 char min
                            Job description as told by an old timer: "Drive fast cars, look at pretty women, and drink coffee".


                            • #15
                              You guys don't carry Asps or night sticks? I've been in this business since 1966, and I ain't goin to the ground if I can help it. Pain hurts! This is a case where it is better to give than to recieve. A little proper training with an asp (or stick) and you can do take-downs, cause instant muscle cramps, or break a bone if necessary! I don't heal like I did when I was younger, so if anyone is going to the hospital, I try real hard to make sure it isn't me. Yes, I have belts in Okinawan Karate and Judo, and agree with the philosophy of the .45 A.C.P., but the asp is the first line of physical defense for me.


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