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  • sixgun4559
    Forum Member
    • Jan 2013
    • 6

    Simunitions training and Veterans

    Ok my department is planning on doing simunitions training and they’re going to be using the wax tip bullets in shoot houses. I totally understand the reasoning behind it and the usefulness of the training. That being said I think it should be optional. I voiced me opinion because I’m a former infantrymen with two combat deployments. This training isn’t going to be an easy thing to just deal with. Having to relive the act of literally seeing people get shot and pulling the trigger on a live person again is not going to be easy for me to live with. I don’t mean I can’t do the training however the adverse effects I don’t think are being taken into consideration. For example sleeping that night or for the next week for that matter isn’t going to be easy. People tend to get it confused as did my Lt. when I tried to explain this. It’s not that I can’t do the training it’s the fact that the after effects and that “adrenaline dump” that is going to happen during the training is going to make my life much harder for the next couple of days, and even after the scenario I know I’m going to be going a million miles an hour and what they think of as “a fun day at the shoot house” is not going to be anything close to fun for me. I think the training can be done via red guns just as easily as with sim guns. I know it teachers cover and what not better and I’m defiantly going to be able to do the training and do it well. I won’t freak out or “go crazy”. My adrenaline will probably be going a lot more than most and when the stop to “index” I can’t just shut it off. There’re making the training as real as possible, so for some people it’s going to feel almost too real. I’m hoping to get some feedback on this from people and see what people think about this. Just to be clear I’ve passed Psych and never once lied to them, people call this sort of thing PTSD however that condition is highly misunderstood and misrepresented. I just considerate it memories of war and they stick with you for life. I’m worried about the station trying to pull my creds because there going to say I can’t handle the stress, which isn’t the case I’m just wondering what some Officers think about pressing the issue on this and stressing that I don’t want to do this training and it’s not a requirement.
  • L-1
    • Jun 2004
    • 7269

    #2
    I hear and understand exactly what you are saying, however, as a manager the first things that pop into my mind are:

    If this guy can’t handle this in a simulated training exercise, how will he react in a real life event?

    Is this guy emotionally fit and mentally prepared to respond to and handle the aftermath of an active shooter event?

    Does his state of mind present a potential risk to himself, his fellow officers and the public in an active shooter event?

    Am I facing a potential negligent retention situation?

    Upon hearing your concerns and why they pose a problem for you, I would have a strong discussion with HR about sending you to a fitness for duty psych.
    Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

    Comment

    • sixgun4559
      Forum Member
      • Jan 2013
      • 6

      #3
      I defiantly see what you’re saying I guess I wasn’t exactly clear on what it was I meant. I have had to use my weapon before and know exactly the consequences of pulling the trigger. I have had to do it more than once and could do so dependably however after a while it affects you. I know full well that if something happens I will be able to draw and utilize my weapon if needed. I know this because I have had to do it many times and I was someone who anyone of my fellow soldiers could say that they could count on. That being said I don’t go paintballing and I don’t find “fun” in shooting at someone anymore. As you said, can this person handle the aftermath will all respect I have handled the aftermath and it’s not something that is just easily to brush off. I would be more afraid of an officer who could just brush off taking a life and thinking it’s no big deal. I understand during the heat of the moment the adrenaline excites you however afterward an almost guilt feeling hits. That is normal and I believe is a healthy effect of such a situation. I don’t think it’s fair to pass judgment so hastily on guys like me they just slap a label of PTSD and say you’re not fit to carry a gun. I say the rookie cop who’s never pulled the trigger or seen true violence isn’t ready to be a cop. I am great with people never had a complaint and feel I do a great job at what I do. I hope I never have to use my weapon ever in the job that being said I know without a shadow of a doubt that I can do it and keep my head while I do it, I’ve had to do it before and know I’m capable. The problem is that this simulation training isn’t a game for someone like me. A lot of the guys are thinking it’s going to be fun and laugh about it however I don’t think its fun or funny getting shot at is scary and having to react takes quite a bit of courage. Freezing happens and no matter how much training you put an officer through or a soldier sometimes they freeze sometimes they can’t handle it. They can have all the training in the world but it doesn’t always matter. My main point is that I was thinking about asking for an exemption on this simply because of the effect it’s going to have on me. I don’t think it’s fair to question my Psych because I’ve been through hard situations. I’m really glad you responded the way you did though because I would like to see if I can get you to see it through my perspective. I don’t think my mental health is an issue and in September I did have my mental health assessment and I was completely honest with the doc. I have the scars of battle for sure however I’m in positive control of them and take measures to ensure that I’m in complete control. The doc saw that and understands it. Just because I go see a psych doc at the VA doesn’t mean I’m crazy it means I’m actively taking responsibility for my mental health, this should be a good thing. I’m torn on whether I should ask to opt out of the training because right now it’s mandatory however I don’t want to have to deal with this for the next two weeks afterwards. Not because I can’t handle because I have had to handle it before. And I just don’t know if this silly paintball exercise is necessary if it negatively affects an officer so much. Some more notes you should know on qualifying I normally shoot 50 out of 50 and in tactics I’m a crack shot in movement drills. Please don’t take this as me bragging however I’m a good shot. I handle scenario training just fine and react properly. So is this training necessary?
      Again I’m not trying to argue and I apologies if I come off that way I’m just trying to get another opinion on this, and who better than other officers.

      Comment

      • just joe
        Forum Member
        • Oct 2006
        • 8540

        #4
        If it is mandatory department training everyone does the same training from the same source; there are too many potential negative repercussions to do it any other way. Officers who have been in an OIS don't get a free pass on firearms training.

        Comment

        • sixgun4559
          Forum Member
          • Jan 2013
          • 6

          #5
          Yea your right on that I guess they department just wants to see how I’m going to react and I guess that fair of them do make such a training mandatory. I’ve never done simulations training and maybe it’s not as big of a deal as I’m thinking. I guess this is just going to have to be something I’m just going to have to bite the bullet and deal with. Doesn’t make it any easier but like you said mandatory is mandatory I guess I just wish I had someone in my department that shares a common experience with me fortunately none of our officers have been in OIS and I hope it stays that way. Just sometimes wish I had a similar guy to bounce stuff off rather than someone who doesn’t quite understand.

          Comment

          • L-1
            • Jun 2004
            • 7269

            #6
            I think we really do understand what you are saying. But you need to understand what you are essentially telling the department and management - that you are having difficulty handling the psychological stress created by this type of simulation training.

            The concept that you are OK to do it in real life but have issues doing in simulated exercises does not ring true. It raises a big read flag, screams of negligent retention, failure to train and begs for a fitness for duty psych.

            Does your agency have a EAP program? If so, you may want to have a chat with them.
            Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

            Comment

            • sixgun4559
              Forum Member
              • Jan 2013
              • 6

              #7
              We'll yea I will have an after effect from the training and I will probably take the training more seriously than more co workers. This issues with the simulation isn't with drawing and shooting someone I got that all day long no problem but it's basically digging up bones for me. Everyone no matter how perfect has some skeletons in there closet I'm just trying to be honest about mine. Psych wise I can draw and shoot when asked and will do so in the training but going through a war and seeing people get blow up and shot to hell really makes it hard to go and play war with a bunch of guys who think this crap is a laughing game. There is no doubt in my mind I will not freeze pulling the trigger and hitting the target(person) is the easy part I'm just saying it's bringing out stuff that is hard to deal with. Because I have been there and scene what it looks like and now after this sim training I'm going to have trouble sleeping again and all this other stuff that goes along with having to deal with the violence of war. I completely understand your point in that it makes management worry about my head and where it's at. I'm just trying to figure out a way to explain to them say they have a scenario and I have to buddy drag someone out of a building. This is something I have done before and can so again no problem however when there like "ok index" I'm gonna need a few min to chill cause it might be a little harder cause I've actually done it before. I'm not looking to dodge training and I don't think I'm not psychologically fit for duty like I said I was totally honest with the psych doc and he was like ya you got some issues however you have a good handle on it. I really do thank you for your input because now I'm prolly just going to keep my mouth shut about not wanting to do this sim training and just do it. I'll be fine it's just gonna be hell on me for a couple of days or weeks. I don't think that. Is a negative thing I think it's normal. Again thanks for your guys help I mean it and please advise me more if you can. However negligent retention I can assure you isn't an issue the issue lies with memories that are going to be brought to light like I said skeletons in my closet. Proving myself in this traing I guess is just going to be something I will have to do. I guess we all have things we don't want to do however I chose a profession where guns are a big part of the job and part of the reason I chose it was because I know I can hold my own and be there for my comrades when called upon without sounding like I'm bragging again I have been there done that. I just have to prove it to myself and hopefully every time we do this traning it will get easier for me.

              Comment

              • slamdunc
                JAFO
                • Oct 2005
                • 4394

                #8
                Originally posted by sixgun4559
                I don’t think it’s fair to pass judgment so hastily on guys like me they just slap a label of PTSD and say you’re not fit to carry a gun.
                You pointed out that you suffer from PTSD, which is one of the least understood disorders at this point in time.
                Originally posted by sixgun4559
                I say the rookie cop who’s never pulled the trigger or seen true violence isn’t ready to be a cop.
                I was close to a rookie (four weeks out of the academy) who had his 'Trial By Fire'; he had to let the air out of two bad guys after one of them had just shot his FTO. I have also been in stressful situations with a seasoned veteran officer (also combat vet); when SHTF, he started sweating, talking to himself and really got in the way. He became a liability and took a medical / psychological retirement.
                Originally posted by sixgun4559
                The problem is that this simulation training isn’t a game for someone like me. A lot of the guys are thinking it’s going to be fun and laugh about it however I don’t think its fun or funny getting shot at is scary and having to react takes quite a bit of courage.
                Not to offend, but have you spoken with your counselor about this? You're right about it not being a game, but we still have to be trained up. I do a lot of DV, CIT, and interview & interrogation training; nobody likes that stuff (except me LOL), but we use it almost every shift. Most of the guys love kicking doors in & shooting and blowing stuff up; something we almost never do.
                Originally posted by sixgun4559
                My main point is that I was thinking about asking for an exemption on this simply because of the effect it’s going to have on me. I don’t think it’s fair to question my Psych because I’ve been through hard situations.
                Again, speak with your counselor and try to determine what the realistic effect will be. If it is more than you think you want to tolerate, this may not be the job for you.

                Originally posted by sixgun4559
                Just because I go see a psych doc at the VA doesn’t mean I’m crazy it means I’m actively taking responsibility for my mental health, this should be a good thing.
                It absolutely doesn't mean you're crazy; it means that you have some issues; you are dealing with and trying to work through them.
                Originally posted by sixgun4559
                I’m torn on whether I should ask to opt out of the training because right now it’s mandatory however I don’t want to have to deal with this for the next two weeks afterwards.
                Only you know how much you can handle and what lengths you are willing to go to in order to stay with your chosen career. Good luck to you at any rate.

                “Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”

                Miyamoto Musashi

                “Life Is Hard, But It's Harder When You're Stupid”

                George V. Higgins (from The Friends of Eddie Coyle)

                Comment

                • sgt jon
                  Tinfoil Hat Engineer
                  • Jun 2009
                  • 2619

                  #9
                  My colleagues have make note of the potential issues surrounding your open admission. This is not a jibe at you but recognition that having been in combat and experienced what you have can have long lasting implications and this is something that some departments don’t fully appreciate.

                  If you have concerns that this training evolution will potentially impact you- you need to seek professional guidance. Only you and a professional can determine what the best course of action is.

                  My concern is that this training evolution could trigger a negative reaction and one that could be hard to pull back from. We all try to be strong and show resolve, but we are human. Each of us will react differently to the same stressors- my honest assessment is that you need to take pause and discuss this with a professional.
                  Originally posted by SSD
                  It has long been the tradition on this forum and as well as professionally not to second guess or Monday morning QB the officer's who were actually on-scene and had to make the decision. That being said, I don't think that your discussion will go very far on this board.
                  Originally posted by Iowa #1603
                  And now you are arguing about not arguing..................

                  Comment

                  • sixgun4559
                    Forum Member
                    • Jan 2013
                    • 6

                    #10
                    -Update-
                    I took your guys advice and spoke with my chief (who came in on Sunday to do paperwork) and laid it all out for him. His basic response surprisingly was that "you never know until you try" he basically told me that not doing the training and selecting to opt out would make me a liability however if I just try it and see how it goes maybe it won’t affect me like I think it will. We had a long talk and basically decided for me to go through the training and if something happens that really bothers me and I need a sec relax he said that wouldn’t be a problem as long as it was reasonable. He said I wouldn’t know if I’ll have a terrible adverse effect unless I tried it, so I’m going to give it a shot. I feel a lot better about it knowing my chief didn’t shun me and tell me I need to see psych. he said that it’s good to know that I understand how serious a shooting situation is and he said it was good that I don’t take it lightly because I’ve done so. I’m sure telling him this will make his more watchful of me during the training or at least the instructors or whatever but that’s good if I can’t handle it maybe I don’t belong. My attitude kind of changed about it. If I fail trying at least I tried but who knows maybe it won’t affect me as bad as I’m making it out to be. Anyways I appreciate the help and I feel better at least letting someone know. He also said that before and after the training I will talk with the psych doc. He said as long as he clears me both times I’m good to go. So I’ll talk with the psych doc again next week and let him know what ups then after the training if everything goes ok I’ll talk with him again about how the training affected me. This is a very personal issue which is why I posted it on a forum where know body really knows who I am. To be honest if there is any doubt in my mind that when/if the SHTF I can’t react I will turn in the badge and gun myself I know how important it is to be able to back up each other up and you have to be able to react. So thanks for the advice and ill post and update when the training is over.

                    Comment

                    • tanksoldier
                      • Dec 2009
                      • 4618

                      #11
                      If this guy can’t handle this in a simulated training exercise, how will he react in a real life event?
                      If you have trouble handing the simulation, you'll have trouble handling the real event.

                      In the event, even if you successfully engage your targets and neutralize the threat, what will the post-incident repercussions be for you? Surviving an OIS only to commit suicide or something later does neither you nor the department any good.

                      If this really is an issue for you, you need to see somebody and seriously consider your employment.

                      If you're just looking for an excuse to get out of training that you think is stupid and pointless because you've BTDT then you need to check yourself and get with the program.
                      "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

                      "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

                      Comment

                      • rookie2006
                        police officer (rookie)
                        • Apr 2006
                        • 342

                        #12
                        The best part about the Simms training is that it is not real, no matter what happens. You may be a little anxious and your anxiety may be heightened because you know its coming. Try and relax and look at what the training teaches you. Cover, concealment, rapid decision making, and learning how to work through life or death situations. It's just training and it has to be done no matter what agency you work for. I hope you are able to over come this and continue to overcome these feelings. You have come a long way and I'm sure you are not ready to let some training stop you now.

                        I'm a hospital cop and I enjoy SIMMS training because it helps keep me mentally fresh,and reminds me no matter what I'm a police officer, and I may have to put my life on the line no matter what.
                        My life is in GOD’s hands, and he hasn’t finished with me yet.

                        Comment

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