Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

AZ speed trailers/ vans for enforcement

Collapse

300x250 Mobile

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • AZ speed trailers/ vans for enforcement

    I am curious, My parents live in Tucson, I am in Ohio....Arizona seems to have an increasing trend, following Phoenix area to post up unmanned speed enforcement trailers or vans..... as I understand it these vans record your vehicle speeding and then the picture is "reviewed" by someone to see if the driver is the registered owner.. what I don't get is where is the visual estimation of speed??? This according to case law is the pivotal piece of information needed for speed enforcement. Case law states that the radar is only supplementing the visual estimate made by officers

    Just interested on some feedback on anyone who is familiar, specifically in AZ
    FYI, I am a radar, lidar instructor with about 100 hrs of class room and practical training, 80 hrs. at the Ohio State Patrol Academy.
    "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" Romans 12:21

  • #2
    They are not unmanned! There is someone in there that visual estimates the speed, and reviews it right then and there. They are constantly in court testifying to it.
    "When I close my eyes.....I'll see you on the other side....!!!"

    Hate to put it this way skippy, buy every night I suit up and climb in the cruiser I'm at war. I'm always outnumbered, potentially out gunned and always behind enemy lines.

    Comment


    • #3
      OK, that makes alot more sense....
      Also interesting to note, Tucson posts where the van will be on their website...
      "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" Romans 12:21

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't know if that's correct.

        I can only tell you about the Photo Enforcement vans in Scottsdale. And my information is at least 1 year old. (I moved)

        The vans are owned by a contract company. They are maned by a civilian employee of the contract company. The vans are marked with SPD's paint but they bear no emergency lighting/siren equipment. The van has a computer system inside that is initiated when the operator puts the van in position. The computer program operates the radar and camera. There is no human estimation of speed. The operator has no control over who's picture it takes and at what speed. The locations of vans are planned and programmed ahead of time and loaded into the computer. Even the route is planned for the day. The operator simply tells the system what program to run. At the end of their shift, they turn in the film/disk or however they store the pictures and info.

        The info is gathered and sent to the Police Department's Photo Enforcement Division to be reviewed. Once reviewed properly, citations are sent to the violators address listed on the vehicle's registration. Info/Photo's are reviewed by civilian employees of the department. SPD filled this division with Police Aide's about 18 months ago.

        Do the van operator's have to testify in court? I have no idea. I don't see why they would need to though.
        -918-

        Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness. James 3:18

        Clinging to my guns and religion since 1975

        Comment


        • #5
          without any estimation of speed than there is a violation of established case law... so if there is an operator...they would have to confirm the visual estimate... which includes target identification and verification of the Doppler audio to be consistent with the speed estimate and readout.
          "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" Romans 12:21

          Comment


          • #6
            I've always wondered about that. Vans and cameras operating without visual and auditory tracking - yet still being able to issue citations off both. Doesn't equate to what Radar School teaches. Of course, in AZ, you could just send the photo cite back in and say it wasn't you.



            Well, you CAN! It's not the right thing for cops to do, but really how do you identify the driver if you haven't been stopped and shown your license to the officer?
            NRA Life Member

            The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. - Sir Robert Peel

            Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. - H. L. Mencken

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't claim to understand the lawfulness of it, only the way it is done. There is no visual estimation of speed. It is all done by a computer system. It runs automatically and continuously. You get in the beams path, 10 over the speed limit, you get a Polaroid taken.

              The other legal issue I've always had with the entire process has been the fact that a misdemeanor, such as speeding, must be committed in the presence of a police officer to be enforceable. The operator is not a sworn officer, not even an employee of the department. The person who overlooks the photos and information is not (usually) a sworn officer either. How is this important aspect of enforcement circumvented?

              Slaughter, I've had several friends do just that. Actually, they just never answered the initial complaint they received in the mail. It is NOT sent certified so delivery is not guaranteed anyway. I do know if you are habitually photographed and do not answer, they will send an officer to your door step for a 'chat'. Last year, motorcycle on Scottsdale's portion of the 101, several photo's over 140 MPH. He was jailed. If I can dig up the article, I'll post it for ya.
              -918-

              Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness. James 3:18

              Clinging to my guns and religion since 1975

              Comment


              • #8
                Biggest waste of money this state has ever spent. Most of the cameras are unmanned. All the ones mounted on the poles along 1-10, 51 and 17 are all unmanned. Also you have dont answer the cite they send a process server to your door. If you dont answer your door for 30 plus days then the cite is quashed if they cant serve you within sixty days. Not that I have any knowledge of folks who have done this. I believe the new Pinal County Sheriff is doing away with their photo enforcement and our next Govenor I heard is not a fan of it. The program is very costly to maintain and in alot of cities has been actually losing money over the past few years.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hunter, I read some information last year that was the opposite of this, that in fact this was a huge revenue generator for them, and in the back of my mind I could see this being the motivation to continue the program... Can't point you directly to the ariticle it was in the AZ Daily Star....

                  One on my concerns is that this whole process would be appealed to higher levels and there would be major set backs for ESMD operators and speed enforcement across the board.... History has shown us in the past when radar were marketed as so simple a monkey could operate it the Bench mandated more training and continual education and more stringent court process....
                  "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" Romans 12:21

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    the cities and companies running the photo radar cameras dont give a rats *** about the legality. All they see is the revenue that it generates. That is the bottom line. The way I see it, photo radar is causing more accidents than preventing them. people see the cameras slam on their brakes and now what do we have? An accident that blocks the freeway for hours instead of an officer issuing a citation and being on their way. Dont forget the other issue is purchasing more cameras rather than hiring more officers.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The TPD speed vans are manned by civilian employees. These civilians are employed by the speed van manufacturers. They do not visually estimate speed and do not testify in court. An officer matches the picture of the registered owner to the radar photo and decides whether to mail a citation.

                      I personally feel that photo radar should be banned because it takes the job that an officer should be doing. Such a large cut of the money goes to the radar company, it makes me sick.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sam the speed demon!
                        NRA Life Member

                        The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. - Sir Robert Peel

                        Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. - H. L. Mencken

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We were pitched a number of years back at an IACP event about photo enforcement- both stop light and speed systems. I understood that there were two ways to run the program- one through civil assessment and the other through criminal (traffic court) penalties.

                          At that time, all of the states that had adopted it (I want to say Maryland was one of the presenters) stated that the way to run a program is through a civil assessment- not a criminal one. My understanding was that the owner of the vehicle received a civil letter demanding the fine amount be paid or that they identify the responsible party (driver) at the time of the incident. It was not a ticket and did not go on a driving record or show up on their insurance rating. In this way, the courts were not tied up and they could hold simple administrative hearings on the violations instead- with a completely different set of rules of law and evidence.

                          Anyone have any more experience with this?
                          ---Cut the red wire---

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I hope it's true. Although, I hate to think of all the money that was spent on these units. Wonder what they would do with everything if they're decommissioned?
                            NRA Life Member

                            The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. - Sir Robert Peel

                            Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. - H. L. Mencken

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KAA951 View Post
                              We were pitched a number of years back at an IACP event about photo enforcement- both stop light and speed systems. I understood that there were two ways to run the program- one through civil assessment and the other through criminal (traffic court) penalties.

                              At that time, all of the states that had adopted it (I want to say Maryland was one of the presenters) stated that the way to run a program is through a civil assessment- not a criminal one. My understanding was that the owner of the vehicle received a civil letter demanding the fine amount be paid or that they identify the responsible party (driver) at the time of the incident. It was not a ticket and did not go on a driving record or show up on their insurance rating. In this way, the courts were not tied up and they could hold simple administrative hearings on the violations instead- with a completely different set of rules of law and evidence.

                              Anyone have any more experience with this?
                              In Maryland the violation is assessed against the registration of the vehicle, not the driver of the vehicle as there is no way to positively identify him or her. The fines are substantially less than traffic citations. For example the red light camera ticket that my wife got last year in Annapolis was $50.00 and 0 points; the same vilolation observed and cited by an officer is $110 and 2 points (I may be wrong, but I'm close). If you dont pay the camera ticket the fine goes up to $75 and MVA will not allow you to re-register you car until you pay it and the $30 MVA Admin flag fee. You can contest them in District Court but the max fine then goes up to $100.00. Better to just eat it and stop at the light the next time.

                              Comment

                              MR300x250 Tablet

                              Collapse

                              What's Going On

                              Collapse

                              There are currently 8660 users online. 380 members and 8280 guests.

                              Most users ever online was 19,482 at 11:44 AM on 09-29-2011.

                              Welcome Ad

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X