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  • Manwork

    Just a thought, in respect of you GP handlers what percentage of your in-service training is dedicated to 'Manwork' (Criminal Apprehension- case/recall/stick and gun attack)? It represents probably 10% of operational calls.................................
    "That's funny, he's never done that before!"

  • #2
    how muich of our training done by our official trainer or how much training that I do on my own ?....hmph as for official training day too much....as for my training on my own (like when slow at work) I do LOTS of article searches, off lead obedience and agility (playgrounds at schools make for great obstacle work! and tracks with no apprehension at the end (either a toy, a human with a toy or a human (surrender)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by barrydog View Post
      how muich of our training done by our official trainer or how much training that I do on my own ?....hmph as for official training day too much....as for my training on my own (like when slow at work) I do LOTS of article searches, off lead obedience and agility (playgrounds at schools make for great obstacle work! and tracks with no apprehension at the end (either a toy, a human with a toy or a human (surrender)
      No all I was asking, because of the direction and comments in some of the threads, was what percentage of GP training conducted overall, was 'Manwork' related.

      Obviously I have no idea how much training each handler is allocated by their individual departments, the general rule of thumb should be a minium of two full days each month and at least a two week refresher course every 12 months. Notwithstanding that we all put in an unquantifiable amount of our own time which is to be expected. But as we can all appreciate this is not always the case I guess.....................
      "That's funny, he's never done that before!"

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      • #4
        Bite work, not that much once the dog got the hang of it. more on safety (recall and stand off) I train tracking and open searches a lot more I believe you have to find them first. Bite work about 10% of my working week if that.
        We have 18 hours training a month (about 8 handlers) and 1 week a year testing.
        'Not By Strength, By Guile'

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        • #5
          Originally posted by quebec zulu View Post
          Bite work, not that much once the dog got the hang of it. more on safety (recall and stand off) I train tracking and open searches a lot more I believe you have to find them first. Bite work about 10% of my working week if that.
          We have 18 hours training a month (about 8 handlers) and 1 week a year testing.
          I know mate, absolutly spot on, and that's my point, all this about 'engaging passive subjects', what they are talking about effectively is dogging some poor bugger who is passive, compliant and not a threat. As you say you got to find them first............
          "That's funny, he's never done that before!"

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Eurodog View Post
            I know mate, absolutly spot on, and that's my point, all this about 'engaging passive subjects', what they are talking about effectively is dogging some poor bugger who is passive, compliant and not a threat. As you say you got to find them first............
            Absolutely. However, here in the States is quite different than Europe. while I wholeheartedly prefer European standards of dog training, here we have more armed, more violent & just MORE criminals than in Europe. In discussing this very thing with Jurgen Ritzi & Rheinhard Lindner (I assume you know of them) even they conceded the type of dog we need here is different than in Europe. Consequently many of the dogs we get wouldn't even be considered a good candidate there , so they get sold (why would YOU sell a good prospect). Plus, our patrol practices & policies are somewhat different than European LE so we frequently have to rely on Patrol & K9 units more than, perhaps tactical response teams. I agree we don't spend enough time on scent work but there are underlying reasons besides mere "fun".

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            • #7
              Originally posted by hemicop View Post
              Absolutely. However, here in the States is quite different than Europe. while I wholeheartedly prefer European standards of dog training, here we have more armed, more violent & just MORE criminals than in Europe. In discussing this very thing with Jurgen Ritzi & Rheinhard Lindner (I assume you know of them) even they conceded the type of dog we need here is different than in Europe. Consequently many of the dogs we get wouldn't even be considered a good candidate there , so they get sold (why would YOU sell a good prospect). Plus, our patrol practices & policies are somewhat different than European LE so we frequently have to rely on Patrol & K9 units more than, perhaps tactical response teams. I agree we don't spend enough time on scent work but there are underlying reasons besides mere "fun".
              Well I must say that I personally agree with most posts and comments but on this occasion I have to say that your bad is just as bad as our bad, and we have just as much of it. True you are awash with firearms (I am a shooter and I think we will agree not get side tracked on the 2nd. ammendment), then again we are considered to be in the front line in respect of terrorist operations. We haven't (in the UK anyway) any great number of legally held guns but we have a great number of illegal weapons, which are used in our inner cities on a regular basis.

              As for dogs I don't think you need a different dog, the dogs I source and test dogs that are awaiting evaluation from European police agencies. In fact a couple of months ago I moved a little smartish and bought a dog out from under the Kreis Polizei....he was a cracker.

              For my 02, and it's easy to critizise, but I honestly believe the problem is two fold. There is no broad testing standard for police dogs, and the in-service training is misdirected and poorly planned and executed in the main. To some extent it is understandable as there are a lot of small agencies who simply do not have the resources or manpower to correctly maintain a K9 program. It's not the quality of the dogs, or the dedication of the handlers, it's a lack of experience and knowledge. These dogs can achieve a lot more with a better standard, some of the young handlers here have never been shown how to work a property square, redirection, pattern tracks, box starts, line handling, basic skills for a GP dog, I could go on....It's not their fault, but it's the fault of those who have set up the original program...........
              "That's funny, he's never done that before!"

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              • #8
                ABSOLUTELY! I think we have more in common, personally than what either Dept. allows us to utilize. The thing I found interesting & impressive IS the higher caliber of training & handling there versus here (generally).Locally it seems we use dogs in tactical situations when it's A) unsafe or B) the K9 team is poorly trained in the application. More than once I've seen a dog brought to a gunfight, figuring he'll somehow dodge bullets or won't be affected by them as an officer is. Somehow, somewhere along the line we've lost sight of the dog's primary function & now apply them so as not to get get our hands "dirty" which only results in injured/dead dogs, lawsuits or mis-application which, to say the least, is frustrating when you've seen better K9 sections & handling.........

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by hemicop View Post
                  ABSOLUTELY! I think we have more in common, personally than what either Dept. allows us to utilize. The thing I found interesting & impressive IS the higher caliber of training & handling there versus here (generally).Locally it seems we use dogs in tactical situations when it's A) unsafe or B) the K9 team is poorly trained in the application. More than once I've seen a dog brought to a gunfight, figuring he'll somehow dodge bullets or won't be affected by them as an officer is. Somehow, somewhere along the line we've lost sight of the dog's primary function & now apply them so as not to get get our hands "dirty" which only results in injured/dead dogs, lawsuits or mis-application which, to say the least, is frustrating when you've seen better K9 sections & handling.........
                  Yes it happens here......a number of years ago I was called to assist our then 'tactical team' ( I handled two dogs during my career that where attached to the team.....and no the team were not armed with bows and arrows before anybody asks.....lol). the team leader, an Inspector directed me to send the dog into this barn (it was at a farmhouse), I asked why, as we knew where the guy was armed with a shotgun, and he confidently assured me that when the subject shot the dog it was a green light for them to take him..........pondering this invitation for less then a second I imediately declined. To him the dog was a throw away resource......he reported me of course for 'failing to obey a lawful order', but didn't get anywhere with it, and the situation was resolved in due course because the guy eventually got hungry and gave it up..............

                  But I understand what you say about deploying team's in incidents for which they have not been properly trained.the stakes for both officers, dogs and the general public are too high for 'on the job training'...................
                  Last edited by Eurodog; 07-30-2008, 01:23 AM.
                  "That's funny, he's never done that before!"

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                  • #10
                    and yet I still frequently hear k9 officers talking about sending a dog into a situation that is a barricade and calls for the use of EST....I just shake my head...what is bringing a dog to a gunfight going to do except get the dog killed....

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                    • #11
                      I don't know what the rules are for 'sending your dog' in the us but in the uk it's my choice no-one can order me (and that includes the chief constable) eurodog hits the nail on the head, we are lucky our training is national we have trials which involve the whole country so training (should be) all the same.
                      I train with our firearm teams (who are great)its important that they know what the dog can do and means im confident they won't sacrifice the dog on a 'operation certain death'
                      'Not By Strength, By Guile'

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