Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Scenario Question for you All...

Collapse

300x250 Mobile

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Scenario Question for you All...

    Last night we had a find during an area search, and I want to go over some specifics about the situation that I am hoping some if you might have experienced in your patrol work.

    Basically, we were conducting an area search following a bail-out and foot chase in a residential neighborhood. Most of the yards were separated by fences, which made establishing any sort of trail very difficult. During the course of our search we were finally directed towards a specific residence by a witness who had seen the suspect run between the houses about 5 minutes prior.

    I start off into the front yard of the house, and my partner proceeds to trail between the two houses and into the backyard. Here's where it becomes interestingd, and a bit puzzling to me...

    We trail to the end of the backyard, where a fence stops us. There are a couple sheds that we check, but they are both locked. At this point, after working the past 15 minutes or so in 100 degree heat index, my boy is pretty much spent, so I down him for a couple minutes to give him a rest. Out of the corner of my eye, I see something out of place--- the suspect, sitting perfectly passive in a patio chair with a towel over his head and upper body trying to conceal himself. So, basically, I had been in the backyard with the suspect for 5 or so minutes before I even noticed the guy was there.

    My concern is that my partner never even picked up on the fact that the guy was 10 yds away from us; un-nerving and frustating to say the least.

    After talking to a couple of my human partners, we came up with a few possibilities, and I wanted to toss this out there as I am sure that someone might have a similar story to share with me.

    1) My partner was probably pretty much spent, and most likely wasnt using
    his nose at the time

    2) When we took into account the wind direction, it was carrying the suspect's scent away from our position

    3) My partner is still new, and probably just isnt used to considering the
    possibility of a suspect out in the open (which is valid considering the amount of people we usually encounter on our area searches)

    Now, I know this is a K9 Team. There is no doubt that I should have picked up that the suspect was there regardless whether or not the dog did. I am mad at myself for not visually checking as much as I should have, and in turn, leaving us exposed.

    So- any stories, experiences, similar situations that you all have encountered would be appreciated. Any additional thoughts on how the circumstances contributed to the end result would be more than welcome too.

    As one of my partners said, 'Welcome to K9! It's frustrating as hell sometimes!'...guess that pretty much sums it up

  • #2
    Where you conducting and area search and therefore off lead, or tracking with line and harness? This term trailing is a little misleading, should be one of the two?

    Likely you are right a little too much heat sounds like you hit the border of nasal exhaution. If you conducted an area search off lead, you might have been better to have cast and tracked on a short line (as for hard surface), it might have been a little more easy on the nose department. But it's easy to be a 'Monday morning quarterback' as you say, I wasn't there, but you made the call, got the guy. Chalk it down to the lad.........nothing put's an old head on young shoulders, yours or the dogs.........If it was easy this dog handling everyone would want to do it!............
    "That's funny, he's never done that before!"

    Comment


    • #3
      Hey Eurodog...I was conducting the search on lead with a harness, as in tracking. When the track cannot be established, we basically fall back into an on-lead area search of yards, sheds, porches, etc.

      Comment


      • #4
        Better to conduct it off lead mate....on lead searching is very hit and miss for persons, and you are getting a little too close......
        Last edited by Eurodog; 07-19-2008, 10:24 AM.
        "That's funny, he's never done that before!"

        Comment


        • #5
          Myself & a friend, a Swiss National who certifies S&R dogs in Switzerland, ran a test years ago on a bitch I had for tracking. She was an exceptional tracker, so she was a good "guinea pig". We ran an 800 pace track, 106degree heat, 23 % humidity, 45 minutes old & she tracked perfectly. While it's possible your dog was spent, IMO I'd put as much "blame" on the fact he's green & too often we rely on a dog's tracking skills & not on his vision. The problem, as I see it, is that it takes a little while for a police dog to combine his scent training (since we usually work on ground scent) with air scenting & using his eyes. Plus while a dog may be great at finding small pieces of evidence, how many of us have taught the dog tofind largewr items, like a briefcase or a bicycle the suspect may have use. I think your dog just need a little more time, better conditioning & some success on tracks where the item (suspect) isn't always on the ground.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hemicop and Eurodog: I PM'd both of you...thanks.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by hemicop View Post
              Myself & a friend, a Swiss National who certifies S&R dogs in Switzerland, ran a test years ago on a bitch I had for tracking. She was an exceptional tracker, so she was a good "guinea pig". We ran an 800 pace track, 106degree heat, 23 % humidity, 45 minutes old & she tracked perfectly. While it's possible your dog was spent, IMO I'd put as much "blame" on the fact he's green & too often we rely on a dog's tracking skills & not on his vision. The problem, as I see it, is that it takes a little while for a police dog to combine his scent training (since we usually work on ground scent) with air scenting & using his eyes. Plus while a dog may be great at finding small pieces of evidence, how many of us have taught the dog tofind largewr items, like a briefcase or a bicycle the suspect may have use. I think your dog just need a little more time, better conditioning & some success on tracks where the item (suspect) isn't always on the ground.

              My experience a dogs eyesight is **** poor, but agree totally with you on high finds on tracks, and you are also right in repect of this being a young dog, the truth is we alway carry them a little until they get their paws under the table.........................
              "That's funny, he's never done that before!"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Eurodog View Post
                My experience a dogs eyesight is **** poor, but agree totally with you on high finds on tracks, and you are also right in repect of this being a young dog, the truth is we alway carry them a little until they get their paws under the table.........................
                Agreed, adog's eyesight IS poor compared to ours but his nightvision is better & some dog's go into "one mode" when working & that's it. A dog, like people, needs to learn he has more than one tool availible to him when working & that just takes time.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Eurodog View Post
                  Better to conduct it off lead mate....on lead searching is very hit and miss for persons, and you are getting a little too close......
                  Off lead would be better, I agree 100%, But in my limited (<2 years) experience as a handler off lead searches are pretty much impossible in an urban or suburban envrionment (Fluffy the cat is going to get eaten or little Johnny is going to get bit).

                  A passive suspect is the problem, if he took off running I'm sure your dog would have been all over him. I'd reccomend (and I am far from an expert on anything) training with a passive decoy with no equipment and using a muzzle or put the decoy in an enclosure (like a kennel or a trailer).
                  "Why is common sense so rare?" - Me

                  By the way.. They aren't "Clients" or "Customers" they're CRIMINALS... sheesh

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This is the problem of course with 'bite and hold' dogs but let's not go there we've debated it to death.

                    I would be inclined to try and search off lead with the dog working in view a lot closer to you (within 30'). Reply on quartering skills to redirect the dog and obedience commands to control any encounters. I have had in the past a couple of fellon's hiding in rolled carpets and inside a column of stacked tyres, not withstanding every box imaginable. I would suggest time spent on training quartering and hand signals, always handy in other areas too (property search etc).

                    There are a number of our colleagues who will disagree with me I am sure, but searching on a line is not a good idea, it has been promoted in some quarters as an exercise called 'Scouting', it's confusing to the dog and encourages air scenting (after we spend hours training the dog to put his nose to the ground). Tracking should always be conducted with the dog harness with a 30' tracking line, free tracking has been popular in the past but it is less efficient, property can easily be missed and also offenders when tracking two or more people. You can go straight past them. Another point is that line handling as we all know is a very difficult skill, we have all struggled to master it, and if you do not use it regularly you will lose it.

                    This practice of searching on a line is in my humble view bad practice, it will in time cause more problems than it solves. I understand the reasons behind it although well intentioned.

                    It's only my personal view, I have one of my handlers in the States who swears by it and it is his call. I set up some exercises for his in-service training to monitor his tracking to ensure that any problems with the tracking is idenfified early and trained through..................
                    Last edited by Eurodog; 07-20-2008, 01:55 AM.
                    "That's funny, he's never done that before!"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Eurodog.. I agree, you're right.

                      But around here, off-lead anything is just asking for trouble, and using anything other than a 6 foot lead ends up with us tied in a knot around a tree.

                      And while the dog does better without us messing it up, in reality we have to do it. If we didn't we'd be "sued to smithereens" and shut down in no time.

                      You should "Train like you fight" otherwise you aren't training at all. We do a very bad job of that over here (at least where I work).

                      If we could get all the criminals to wear bite sleeves and wave them around it would make life much easier.
                      "Why is common sense so rare?" - Me

                      By the way.. They aren't "Clients" or "Customers" they're CRIMINALS... sheesh

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Now I know that's not true, there is little you can't somehow train around, you have good quality dogs I know (because people like me send them over there). Do you train quartering, using hand commands to direct your dog searching a given area?

                        I always remember when I was a handler in the North of England I had a 20' tracking line, and loved it, because it was short (a lot less work shorting line coming through brush or tree, and onto hard urban surfaces). My old instructor made me chuck it way on my second intitial dog course and insisted I used the standard 30' line. I cursed him up hill and down dale, it took me ages to handle that extra length of line......but you know he was right it paid off in the end.....................

                        You can get your dogs to do a lot more than you think. I mean how many people do you know that train into their standard, property squares, pattern tracks, box searches, quartering, irratrieveable article. In their obedience program the 'long down', 'send away', comprehensive distance control (sit/down/stand) and redirection. It's not that the quality of the handlers or dogs are questionable, not at all they are just as capable as handlers here, it's just that the Standard should be expanded in a lot of areas, there does not appear to be a standard rule of thumb for a lot of departments.............
                        Last edited by Eurodog; 07-20-2008, 03:55 AM.
                        "That's funny, he's never done that before!"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Eurodog View Post
                          Now I know that's not true, there is little you can't somehow train around, you have good quality dogs I know (because people like me send them over there). Do you train quartering, using hand commands to direct your dog searching a given area?
                          1. The dogs you people send a great. They are not the problem.

                          2. We train based on whatever article somebody read last.

                          3. Quatering???? never heard of it.

                          4. Hand commands, a little, but I'm guessing nothing close to what you're talking about.

                          5..... It's 5 am, I have to go to bed.

                          [
                          "Why is common sense so rare?" - Me

                          By the way.. They aren't "Clients" or "Customers" they're CRIMINALS... sheesh

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Sadly you are absolutly right, if you would like me to explain quartering I would be glad to PM you...........It's 11.14 am here but in the meantime 'Good Night'.......................
                            "That's funny, he's never done that before!"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Training Training Training. I wish my department would realize this fact. They have a hard time grasping the fact that a k-9 program doesnt just consist of your k-9 school and then "hey you and your dog train when you can and here is a limited supply of training aids and time". They dont fully understand all the stuff major to minor that goes with it. They expect the dogs to do wonders and locate every suspect or every gram of dope but no extensive training beyond your first k-9 school. AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH frustrating. Sorry for the rant.So 10-31MIKE you hit the nail on the head. unless your in a progressive department with lots of support, your on your own. Euro please pm me with the quartering info.

                              Comment

                              MR300x250 Tablet

                              Collapse

                              What's Going On

                              Collapse

                              There are currently 4635 users online. 281 members and 4354 guests.

                              Most users ever online was 26,947 at 07:36 PM on 12-29-2019.

                              Welcome Ad

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X