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  • #76
    Originally posted by NolaT View Post
    As it should be,………

    Was the classroom door seriously unlocked??!!
    It seems like the excuse dominos the School District PD chief set up are falling one by one...

    "We were waiting for rifles."

    Video shows officers in the hall with rifles shortly after they first arrive on scene.

    "We were waiting for shields."

    Video shows officers with shields in the hallway.

    "We were waiting for entry tools."

    Radio traffic indicates an officer had a halligan tool.

    "We were waiting for keys."

    Classroom door was unlocked.
    "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
    -Friedrich Nietzsche

    Comment


    • #77
      Total incompetence

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by tanksoldier View Post

        CLAIM
        Police should’ve found a way to breach the door earlier.

        MOSTLY-FALSE
        There is no one right answer in these situations as there are too many variables; however, the police were shot through a concrete wall. The classroom door was an outward opening steel door set into a concrete wall with a steel door frame. This type of door is incredibly difficult to breach without special tools, and they are designed to keep active shooters out.

        At the time the police were able to regroup after dragging the injured officers out, the shooting had stopped. This classified the situation as a barricaded gunman with hostages. Rushing a hostage taker will often force them to begin executing hostages, and this is especially true if you cannot breach a door within a split second and utilize the element of surprise. An example of this can be seen with the little girl that the gunman killed as BORTAC was preparing to breach.

        CLAIM
        The police admitted that they screwed up and made the wrong call in a press conference.

        FALSE
        A Texas DPS official who was speaking from a place of emotion made some statements that have been completely taken out of context.

        During these situations, in the moment, you only know what you know, and you don’t know what you don’t know. Decisions can only be made based on what you know at the time.

        “With the benefit of hindsight, where I’m sitting now, of course it was not the right decision, it was the wrong decision, period,” Col. McCraw said.

        The keywords in the above statement are “with the benefit of hindsight” and “where I’m sitting right now”. His remarks stating that it was the wrong decision come from the luxury of having more information on hand and more time to evaluate that information than any of the officers who were on scene during the shooting had. Everyone is taking this quote out of context to mean that he’s saying the officers who rushed in made the wrong decisions based on what they knew at the time.

        IMPORTANT NOTES
        Active shooter response training has evolved over the years since Columbine, and it continues to evolve as police conduct After Action Reviews of each incident. With that being said, an active shooter is only an “active shooter” when they are actively shooting or on the move. Once the shooting stops and a suspect is contained, it is protocol to slow everything down and treat the situation as a barricaded gunman, and in this case, a barricaded gunman with hostages. The next step is to bring in/initiate negotiations.

        Uvalde PD did this.

        The shooter was classified as an active shooter briefly when officers entered the school. He shot through a concrete wall and hit 2 officers. Officers did not return fire because the gunman was in a classroom with kids, and they couldn’t see him to identify a clear shot. The risk of hitting a kid was too great, and they were only equipped with handguns at the time. As police were pulling the 2 injured officers to safety, the shooting stopped and there wasn’t a single shot for another 40 minutes.

        Police began evacuating over 100 kids and faculty to safety while the gunman was contained. They were also notifying BORTAC to respond with special equipment, and searching the school for a master key.

        CONCLUSION
        It is understandable to question how this happened, how he entered the school, and what took so long to neutralize him; however, the officers who responded did what they could with the information that they had at the time and the resources they had available to them.

        A better picture of why the department didn’t have these tools readily available, why there wasn’t a better determined method of full access to the building, etc needs to be determined, but it is fundamentally wrong to be placing all of this blame on the officers who ran into the school. 4 of them had kids of their own inside.

        These claims are what is already out there being spread, and the alternate opinions are based on listening to every 911 call, reading transcripts, comparing timelines, listening to press conferences, gathering consistent info from articles, talking to local officers and parents via PM, and knowing the standard protocols and incident command logistical obstacles during extremely fluid events.

        -Greg James[/i]
        You may say "total incompetence" now, but when the above quote was originally posted, several of you liked it, reposted it, and strongly defended it. And attacked me when I questioned it. But now it's obvious they should have gone in? Obvious that it was an active shooter scenario and not a hostage scenario? Now we don't want them to set a perimeter and call for a negotiator?

        In the time since this thread was started, I've been to three more active shooter trainings. Still haven't been told to transition to any other kind of response once the shooting "stops". Still being told to search for indicators when it's quiet, run towards stimulus when it's not, and eliminate the threat when it's identified.

        Maybe we should be careful with the knee-jerk defensiveness of cops who clearly made mistakes. As someone else on here pointed out, recognizing those mistakes is how we learn from them. Justifying the mistakes doesn't help the profession.
        Last edited by PNW.CFE; 06-23-2022, 07:43 AM. Reason: Edited to correct typo

        Comment


        • #79
          My claim of total incompetence was directed at the secure / unsecure door situation, as deputies are stacked outside, waiting for keys.

          Not being there on scene I’ll hold judgement until more details are released, but as more details are released this whole situation appears to be getting worse and worse for those in charge,…..
          Last edited by NolaT; 06-23-2022, 09:26 AM.

          Comment


          • #80
            Well, they did successfully follow the First Rule of Law Enforcement. Everything else was a fail.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by tanksoldier View Post
              From GeorgiaLeo.com:

              OP-ED
              Below is a list of false claims that are being made about the Uvalde shooting

              CLAIM
              The exterior door to the school was propped open when the gunman entered.

              FALSE
              A teacher heard the shooter wreck his truck, ran outside to call 911, and was told by a neighboring funeral home that he had a gun. She ran back inside while removing a rock that was propping the door open. The doors are supposed to automatically lock when they close, but it didn’t. That cause is being investigated.

              CLAIM
              Police were too scared to enter the school until Border Patrol got there.

              FALSE
              Police entered the school 4 minutes after the initial 911 call. As they approached the classroom where the shooter was, he shot through the wall injuring 2 officers. Police could not return fire for risk of injuring kids inside, and they were only equipped with handguns.

              CLAIM
              A border Patrol agent retrieved a shotgun from his barber, and entered the school to take out the shooter because the police wouldn’t.

              FALSE
              An agent did retrieve a shotgun from his barber and entered the school, but he stacked up in the hallway with police.

              CLAIM
              Police sat in the hallway for 40 minutes while the shooter killed 19 kids.

              FALSE
              The shooter shot 18 kids in the 4 minutes before the police entered the building. He then shot 2 of those officers, but there wasn’t a single shot fired from the time they dragged both officers out until BORTAC arrived on scene. During that time, police kept the gunman pinned in one location, evacuated the rest of the school, and eventually found the Principal who was hiding with the master key.

              EDIT 6/2/22 @ 1pm
              It was initially understood that BORTAC called out to the students inside the classroom, and the gunman shot the girl who did; however, we’ve just received a message from a Uvalde family stating that a boy inside the classroom said “to fool everyone in the room the gunman yelled out “if anyone needs help. Yell Help”. A girl in the classroom yelled and the gunman shot her. This is what prompted BORTAC to breach the door.

              CLAIM
              Police should’ve found a way to breach the door earlier.

              MOSTLY-FALSE
              There is no one right answer in these situations as there are too many variables; however, the police were shot through a concrete wall. The classroom door was an outward opening steel door set into a concrete wall with a steel door frame. This type of door is incredibly difficult to breach without special tools, and they are designed to keep active shooters out.

              At the time the police were able to regroup after dragging the injured officers out, the shooting had stopped. This classified the situation as a barricaded gunman with hostages. Rushing a hostage taker will often force them to begin executing hostages, and this is especially true if you cannot breach a door within a split second and utilize the element of surprise. An example of this can be seen with the little girl that the gunman killed as BORTAC was preparing to breach.

              CLAIM
              The police admitted that they screwed up and made the wrong call in a press conference.

              FALSE
              A Texas DPS official who was speaking from a place of emotion made some statements that have been completely taken out of context.

              During these situations, in the moment, you only know what you know, and you don’t know what you don’t know. Decisions can only be made based on what you know at the time.

              “With the benefit of hindsight, where I’m sitting now, of course it was not the right decision, it was the wrong decision, period,” Col. McCraw said.

              The keywords in the above statement are “with the benefit of hindsight” and “where I’m sitting right now”. His remarks stating that it was the wrong decision come from the luxury of having more information on hand and more time to evaluate that information than any of the officers who were on scene during the shooting had. Everyone is taking this quote out of context to mean that he’s saying the officers who rushed in made the wrong decisions based on what they knew at the time.

              IMPORTANT NOTES
              Active shooter response training has evolved over the years since Columbine, and it continues to evolve as police conduct After Action Reviews of each incident. With that being said, an active shooter is only an “active shooter” when they are actively shooting or on the move. Once the shooting stops and a suspect is contained, it is protocol to slow everything down and treat the situation as a barricaded gunman, and in this case, a barricaded gunman with hostages. The next step is to bring in/initiate negotiations.

              Uvalde PD did this.

              The shooter was classified as an active shooter briefly when officers entered the school. He shot through a concrete wall and hit 2 officers. Officers did not return fire because the gunman was in a classroom with kids, and they couldn’t see him to identify a clear shot. The risk of hitting a kid was too great, and they were only equipped with handguns at the time. As police were pulling the 2 injured officers to safety, the shooting stopped and there wasn’t a single shot for another 40 minutes.

              Police began evacuating over 100 kids and faculty to safety while the gunman was contained. They were also notifying BORTAC to respond with special equipment, and searching the school for a master key.

              CONCLUSION
              It is understandable to question how this happened, how he entered the school, and what took so long to neutralize him; however, the officers who responded did what they could with the information that they had at the time and the resources they had available to them.

              A better picture of why the department didn’t have these tools readily available, why there wasn’t a better determined method of full access to the building, etc needs to be determined, but it is fundamentally wrong to be placing all of this blame on the officers who ran into the school. 4 of them had kids of their own inside.

              These claims are what is already out there being spread, and the alternate opinions are based on listening to every 911 call, reading transcripts, comparing timelines, listening to press conferences, gathering consistent info from articles, talking to local officers and parents via PM, and knowing the standard protocols and incident command logistical obstacles during extremely fluid events.

              -Greg James


              Damn, this aged well.

              https://www.dallasnews.com/news/poli...ooting-sunday/

              Clearly they still had an active shooter situation as the bubbas were stacked up in a hallway as more shots were being fired.

              Heads up tanksoldier, be careful when citing GeorgiaLEO.

              I leave a forum for a few years and it goes to hell in a handbasket. lol
              Last edited by Grunt2LEO; 07-13-2022, 01:59 PM.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Grunt2LEO View Post



                Damn, this aged well.

                https://www.dallasnews.com/news/poli...ooting-sunday/

                Clearly they still had an active shooter situation as the bubbas were stacked up in a hallway as more shots were being fired.

                Heads up tanksoldier, be careful when citing GeorgiaLEO. I knew Greg James for a bit while he was still an LEO, he is generally considered a clown by most reputable deputies who worked with him.

                I leave a forum for a few years and it goes to hell in a handbasket. lol
                It was a summary of what was believed true at the time.

                "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

                "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by tanksoldier View Post

                  It was a summary of what was believed true at the time.
                  Understandable, but cop apologetic sites can be just as guilty of making assumptions as cop bashing ones. Any cop with half a brain could tell the LE response in Uvalde wasn't passing the smell test, regardless of the narrative typically pushed by the media. And the "just following orders" excuse that many of the officers on scene will fall back on is thin shield to protect them from the real issue which is plain cowardice and indecision. Two major keys in ALERRT (allegedly some members of LE took an active shooter course before the shooting) is "Stop the Killing" and "Stop the Dying". They didn't stop the killing so stopping the dying was impossible.

                  There were a couple reports lately that local LE had stopped coordinating with Texas DPS. They know their goose is cooked, the truth is coming out and it is looking more damning with each video release.
                  Last edited by Grunt2LEO; 07-13-2022, 01:58 PM.

                  Comment


                  • tanksoldier
                    tanksoldier commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Dude, if I wanted to argue with somebody I’d go to work. Everyone who was “right” about Uvalde wasn’t right because they knew the facts, they were right by coincidence. They guessed right. Congratulations on your coin flip.

                  • Aidokea
                    Aidokea commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Tanksoldier is right about that...

                • #84
                  tanksoldier see, I didn’t think it was a coin flip opinion. I thought that most cops with half a brain could see this stank from the first media dump. Since then, it’s only solidified the stance that these guys failed their community, themselves and most importantly those children. Those LARPers in that hallway all signed up to put themselves in between their citizens and danger. They ALL failed, and the one who tried to go save his wife, they disarmed.

                  I didn’t think we were arguing, but I’m also amazed by the total lack of outrage in this forum. I’m furious. The guys I work with are furious. We are all so eager to get caught up in the “hug-a-hero” circlejerk, slap Punisher stickers on our trucks, accept free lunches during shift from restaurants but if we **** the bed when it’s time to call out cowards then we are losing credibility.

                  90% of the LEO’s at this scene should do the honorable thing and apologize to their citizens, apologize publicly to cops around the nation for failing us, then hand in their badge and gun. The ones who are too cowardly to do that are probably going to feel so sorry for themselves that they’ll eat their gun.
                  Last edited by Grunt2LEO; 07-14-2022, 05:29 AM.

                  Comment


                  • not.in.MY.town
                    not.in.MY.town commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I completely agree with you.

                    But it's going to be an extremely unpopular opinion among some of the members of this forum; or at least among the vocal ones.

                    Some happily gobbled up and regurgitated the total BS story of how a hero Border Patrol agent borrowed a shotgun from his barber, rushed to the school without back-up, and single-handedly killed the shooter to prevent further bloodshed.

                    THAT nonsense was somehow believable. But that officers made tactical errors is outside the realm of possibility. Smh.

                • #85
                  Originally posted by Grunt2LEO View Post
                  tanksoldierWe are all so eager to get caught up in the “hug-a-hero” circlejerk, slap Punisher stickers on our trucks, accept free lunches during shift from restaurants...
                  Speak for yourself.

                  Comment


                  • #86
                    Originally posted by Aidokea View Post

                    Speak for yourself.
                    Yep. That was a Childish statement. Think he’s going to turn in his badge when he screws up an arrest next time?

                    Nope. It always amazes me when other cops demand mass resignations for things THEY WEREN'T THERE FOR.

                    Guess he’s the expert of all things.

                    Comment


                    • #87
                      Originally posted by Aidokea View Post

                      Speak for yourself.
                      Fair enough, that was a blanket statement. But you know as well as I do the people on shift who claim to be "sheepdogs" who talk the talk but when SHTF they won't walk the walk.



                      Comment


                      • #88
                        Originally posted by CCCSD View Post

                        Yep. That was a Childish statement. Think he’s going to turn in his badge when he screws up an arrest next time?

                        Nope. It always amazes me when other cops demand mass resignations for things THEY WEREN'T THERE FOR.

                        Guess he’s the expert of all things.
                        Screwing up an arrest is equal as idly standing by while children are massacred? C'mon CCCSD, I respect the hell out of you but that's a textbook false equivalence.

                        And it doesn't take an expert of all things to admit, especially now that these professionals failed this entire community. There's hours of raw video that proves this was a botched scene.

                        Comment


                        • #89
                          You don’t think EACH one of them tries to sleep at night knowing they ****ed up? We ALL know it was screwed. Let THEM deal with it.

                          Your job is to learn and train, not declare you know best.

                          And it’s just the same: screw up an arrest and screw up a shooter call. Failure to do your job. Turn in your badge then.

                          Comment


                          • #90
                            Originally posted by CCCSD View Post
                            You don’t think EACH one of them tries to sleep at night knowing they ****ed up? We ALL know it was screwed. Let THEM deal with it.

                            Your job is to learn and train, not declare you know best.

                            And it’s just the same: screw up an arrest and screw up a shooter call. Failure to do your job. Turn in your badge then.

                            Quite frankly IDGAF how they’re dealing with it. The screwed the pooch and it SHOULD haunt them the rest of their lives.

                            I know what my job is, thanks.

                            And if you’re just going to repeat the same ridiculous false equivalencies without understanding (or admitting) that it’s a ridiculous comparison, you’re just in denial.

                            Comment

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