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  • #16
    The offender had 1,657 rounds of ammo.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Aidokea View Post
      The offender had 1,657 rounds of ammo.
      He dropped a bunch on the way…

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      • Aidokea
        Aidokea commented
        Editing a comment
        Yeah, he left 900 outside.

    • #18
      It is becoming clear that the Uvalde police chief made the decision for officers to not make entry, as it was believed that the situation had changed from active shooter to barricaded felon.

      So the cop-hate narrative that the officers didn't make entry because of cowardice, appears unsubstantiated.

      Comment


      • #19
        It's also easy for the public to criticize those on scene with the benefit of knowing everything we now know.

        Comment


        • #20
          What happened happened. The question is why? The answer is probably not cowardice, but that is possible. Did the police chief make a decision based on bad information? Misunderstood information? Flawed training? Cowardice?

          Approaching this using the model of an air crash investigation is my view of how to keep this from happening again. That does not mean there should not be consequences for people. It is possible good people made bad decisions.

          If it turns out bad people made bad decisions so be it. Let the consequences happen.

          Ti.e can not be turned back, and victims can not be brought back to life. We need to understand what happened and why, not jump to conclusions. Once that is done, there will be consequences for some in all likelihood. Does training need to be modified? Increased?

          One flaw I see with slowing down after the shooting stops is that medical assistance is not being delivered. Slowing down once the shooting stops is how I was trained several years ago. I do not know what is taught today, being retired for 3 years.

          In the investigation it is probably better to slow down and do it right. The active shooter response and investigation are different animals.

          Comment


          • #21
            I'm not sure why officers on here are so immediately defensive of analyzing this scenario and (potentially) criticizing the response. I'm a strong proponent of after-action briefings, reports, and analysis. No matter how well we did in a given scenario, there's always room for improvement. The only way to improve is to drop the ego and look at something impartially (not easy for LEO's, considering we're trained and conditioned to "always be right").

            There are multiple issues to be analyzed from this. Entry into secured structures for active shooter or similar situations. Whether an active shooter that turns into a barricade (especially if there are still wounded/casualties inside) justifies an active shooter response or a hold-and-contain response. Appropriate crowd control. ALL of these were issues on this scene and all could have been done better.

            I'm not (yet) of the "they **** the bed" camp (insufficient information at this point, though there do appear to be either command or training issues at play). Nor am I of the "they did everything perfect" camp (because we NEVER do EVERYTHING perfect). Both of these camps need to STFU and come to the middle where issues, potential and real, can be impartially analyzed so we can do things better the next time (because, let's be honest, this will happen again in some form and one of us may very well be the one rolling in hot).
            "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
            -Friedrich Nietzsche

            Comment


            • Aidokea
              Aidokea commented
              Editing a comment
              You are SUCH a grownup...

            • CCCSD
              CCCSD commented
              Editing a comment
              Real Cops aren’t afraid of it. We just wait for the investigation to be over instead of assuming things.

              We also analyze things without resorting to blowing our tops and yelling. It’s over. It’s done. Find the errors and fix them.

            • Bing_Oh
              Bing_Oh commented
              Editing a comment
              Aidokea I'll take that as a compliment.

              CCCSD Tactics can't wait until the investigation is over. These kinds of incidents tend to trigger like-minded psychos and we will have to deal with them long before we have the weeks, months, and years to analyze this (people are STILL analyzing Columbine, and that's been 30 years ago!). If we must, treat what MAY have gone wrong as a hypothetical scenario so we can brainstorm solutions JUST IN CASE we need them next time.

            • Aidokea
              Aidokea commented
              Editing a comment
              Yeah, my comment was intended as a compliment.

          • #22
            Originally posted by jnhdrac View Post
            One flaw I see with slowing down after the shooting stops is that medical assistance is not being delivered. Slowing down once the shooting stops is how I was trained several years ago. I do not know what is taught today, being retired for 3 years.

            In the investigation it is probably better to slow down and do it right. The active shooter response and investigation are different animals.
            A family member brought that up.

            The short answer, is that nobody knows- those officers didn't have X-ray vision.

            Obviously we can't just throw common sense out the window and apply an active shooter response to a barricaded felon situation, just because there MIGHT be a victim inside with life-threatening injuries.

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            • #23
              Until all the facts are known I'll give the LEOs the benefit of the doubt. Especially with all the anti LE people, social justice types out there today.

              What has been reported consistently is that a teacher or school official, propped a door open. Think about that! If some ******* hadn't propped a door open at this school, most of us probably would have never heard of this place in TX.

              Comment


              • #24
                Originally posted by Aidokea View Post
                A family member brought that up.

                The short answer, is that nobody knows- those officers didn't have X-ray vision.

                Obviously we can't just throw common sense out the window and apply an active shooter response to a barricaded felon situation, just because there MIGHT be a victim inside with life-threatening injuries.
                I would actually argue that, if there's a good chance there's a victim inside, common sense would dictate that we treat it as an active shooter and respond as such instead of reverting to a containment posture. Better to take the active shooter response and be wrong than to take a containment response and end up having victims bleed out for lack of medical attention...there's a reason many agencies are now training to have EMS go in with officers during active shooter scenarios.
                "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
                -Friedrich Nietzsche

                Comment


                • #25
                  Originally posted by westside popo View Post
                  Until all the facts are known I'll give the LEOs the benefit of the doubt. Especially with all the anti LE people, social justice types out there today.

                  What has been reported consistently is that a teacher or school official, propped a door open. Think about that! If some ******* hadn't propped a door open at this school, most of us probably would have never heard of this place in TX.
                  If true, that’s a huge game changer in this horrible event

                  Comment


                  • #26
                    Game Changer in the sense that possibly the whole situation could have been altered if that door was secured.

                    Game Changer in the sense that Basic security measures put in place must be followed, locked doors are as basic as any security measure can be,…..

                    Comment


                    • #27
                      Originally posted by Bing_Oh View Post
                      I'm not sure why officers on here are so immediately defensive of analyzing this scenario and (potentially) criticizing the response. I'm a strong proponent of after-action briefings, reports, and analysis. No matter how well we did in a given scenario, there's always room for improvement. The only way to improve is to drop the ego and look at something impartially (not easy for LEO's, considering we're trained and conditioned to "always be right").

                      There are multiple issues to be analyzed from this. Entry into secured structures for active shooter or similar situations. Whether an active shooter that turns into a barricade (especially if there are still wounded/casualties inside) justifies an active shooter response or a hold-and-contain response. Appropriate crowd control. ALL of these were issues on this scene and all could have been done better.

                      I'm not (yet) of the "they **** the bed" camp (insufficient information at this point, though there do appear to be either command or training issues at play). Nor am I of the "they did everything perfect" camp (because we NEVER do EVERYTHING perfect). Both of these camps need to STFU and come to the middle where issues, potential and real, can be impartially analyzed so we can do things better the next time (because, let's be honest, this will happen again in some form and one of us may very well be the one rolling in hot).
                      No matter what, the response doesn't look good at all. But there have been so many inaccurate reports on this incident I prefer to wait for the investigation to be completed at this point.

                      LE has been condemned in the news a lot lately for excessive force and shooting and or killing people. There's been calls for defunding departments, prosecuting LEOs for self defense, ending qualified immunity and replacing LEOs with social workers etc. Now people are calling for the police to "kill" the offender. Not stop or neutralize the threat but to "kill!"

                      I just read one news article were the Director of TX DPS allegedly said the officers on scene should have disobeyed orders by the IC to wait for a SWAT team. The IC allegedly decided to wait for SWAT because he believed the situation changed from an active shooter situation to a barricaded subject situation. We now know that wasn't a good call. But I don't know what they knew at the time everything was happening.

                      One consistently reported factor has been that an outside door had been propped open. And apparently inside classroom doors where left open as well.

                      Comment


                      • #28
                        I find it hard to believe that officers were stacked in a hallway while rounds were popping off.

                        Was there any effort by officers on the scene to gather intel?

                        Not a single breaching kit in any of those cruisers?

                        Comment


                        • #29
                          Originally posted by westside popo View Post
                          No matter what, the response doesn't look good at all. But there have been so many inaccurate reports on this incident I prefer to wait for the investigation to be completed at this point.

                          LE has been condemned in the news a lot lately for excessive force and shooting and or killing people. There's been calls for defunding departments, prosecuting LEOs for self defense, ending qualified immunity and replacing LEOs with social workers etc. Now people are calling for the police to "kill" the offender. Not stop or neutralize the threat but to "kill!"

                          I just read one news article were the Director of TX DPS allegedly said the officers on scene should have disobeyed orders by the IC to wait for a SWAT team. The IC allegedly decided to wait for SWAT because he believed the situation changed from an active shooter situation to a barricaded subject situation. We now know that wasn't a good call. But I don't know what they knew at the time everything was happening.

                          One consistently reported factor has been that an outside door had been propped open. And apparently inside classroom doors where left open as well.
                          I'm all for waiting for the investigation to be complete. I have no interest in running anyone through the mud. But that doesn't stop us from playing the "what if" game. I suspect that many of you were taught as young officers to "what if" while you're driving around on a dead night, running potential scenarios through your heads, the same as I was. Nothing stops us from "what if'ing" this scenario as well based upon the preliminary information that we've received.

                          For example, we have information that responding units had difficulties entering the building because of locked doors, no keys, and no proper entry tools. We have information that there was a breach in school security that gave the shooter access where he shouldn't have been. We have information that there were crowd control issues regarding responding parents and other parties. And, we have information that there was a delay in entry (though the reason for that delay is unclear). By playing "what if" with these various factors (no ego, no defense, no blame), we can maybe do better next time. Even if one or all of these things ends up being false this time, it may not be the next...and "what if" lets us consider that.

                          Before Columbine, active shooter tactics were generally contain and wait for SWAT. Columbine changed all of that, but we couldn't change it without dispassionately analyzing what was done wrong. Maybe universal tactics can wait for a couple of years until the investigation is complete and all the involved parties get a chance to play their political muckraking games, but the next active shooter probably isn't gonna wait that long...these kinds of incidents tend to be triggers for like-minded crazies and we need to be ready for that tomorrow, not next year.

                          As for the political and public screaming, that's no surprise. There is a very vocal group who will use any scenario to push anti-LE sentiment. On the flip side, there will be people who want the police to be SEAL Team 6 (and, let's be blunt, emotions run high when we're talking about dead kids and that's bound to bring out the "kill em all" crowd). For as long as we've been hearing the radicals scream in the last several years, they should be background noise to us at this point.
                          "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
                          -Friedrich Nietzsche

                          Comment


                          • #30
                            Schools and other secure areas that have self locking doors are locked / secured for a reason,….

                            Comment


                            • Aidokea
                              Aidokea commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Yes. A teacher chose to defeat those measures, in violation of school policies, and we got 19 dead kids for it.

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