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  • #46
    Evidence Suppression hearing was on Monday the 4th. An attempt by the defense too suppress the entire traffic stop. This was a 30 minute hearing and was immediately denied by the judge with zero hesitation. Jury trail on March 11 2008. Prosecutors office offered a plea for a fifteen year sentence. It was rejected by the defendant. After Mondays hearing, that offer was withdrawn.

    Try this neat little reaction test guys- http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbo...n_version5.swf
    Last edited by j706; 02-09-2008, 01:18 AM.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

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    • #47
      Originally posted by j706 View Post
      I was so close and it happened so fast. He made a rapid move from a standing position back into the vehicle and I just grabbed his arm, when his arm came up it had a handgun in it. I thought about pushing away and drawing but wasn't sure I had enough time. Plus there was people all around. It was a gamble and luckily I won. PM me if you would like more. This is still a fresh case. ( Two weeks)

      A press-contact shot sounds like it would have done the trick.

      Glad youre okay. Dissect what you did, but dont be hard on yourself. Seek only self improvement and mentallt rehearse those improvements.

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      • #48
        I think it's natural for any cop to examine the situation, and wonder "What cold I have done differently." Not only cops, but also civilians who are subjected to force (and not just deadly force, but like robbery, or muggings) question this.

        I was in a smilar situation, and remember, it pizzed me off also. Luckily, the suspect threw the gun down as I was drawing.

        So, the only thing to say is you did the right thing and followed your instincts. Once you stopped the threat, you recognized it, which shows coolness under stress.

        Had it went another way, I'm sure you would have been ready to respond appropriately. You were in a "shoot" situation, but time and distance and other factors did not allow you to shoot. That doesn't mean you wouldn't shoot, of course, if things had not went the way they did.

        Self-analysis is very helpful, but second guessing isn't, IMO. Your actions were entirely appropriate.
        "Say hal-lo to my leetle frahnd!"

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        • #49
          Originally posted by j706 View Post
          I am not traumatized or anything like that. Heck it didn't even really scare me, just ****ed me off. Not trying to sound like a tough guy, far from it. No shots were fired, I was able to disarm him. However I did take it personnel, real personnel! I just keep wondering if it was something about me myself or was this guy just a stupid a-- Anyone who has had a similar situation did you go thru these type of thoughts? I am not trying to toot my horn with this and hope other officers can learn from it. The guy is going back to prison for the rest of his life. (hopefully) Thanks in advance for any thoughts or suggestions.

          Your reaction isn't all that unusual, but a good number of officers have found that, while they thought they had shrugged the incident off, they hadn't. It can fester for a long time and link up with other, less traumatic events in your career to really throw you off loop. I know of such cases, myself include. Nothing really bothered me until 24 years later when I was ready to eat my gun. Just a thought from a brother--maybe consider some followup with a therapist. I wish I had.

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          • #50
            Update- Plea Agreement reached. Guilty Plea of violent felon in possession of a firearm. All other charges dropped. Eight (8) year sentence. With time served and good behavior will be out in three (3) to prey on the citizens again.

            Probation called me and asked me if I was OK with that. When I said "NO- not at all", they asked me if I was taking the entire matter personal!! I attempted to tell them that this puke was a convicted murderer and would have murdered again if he could have. Not to mention since being released from his murder conviction time (20 years) he had already stabbed a female and committed three (3) other felony's. And while jailed on my charges committed yet another felony (Battery with bodily injury).

            I am pretty much ticked off. My biggest mistake was not calling the US attorneys office. I arrested another violent felon with a handgun last month. He is not even a murderer and the government is taking his case and will be attempting a ten (10) year sentence.

            Revolving door justice. Gotta love it.
            "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

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            • #51
              If you haven't read "On Combat" yet get it and read it and keep it handy. It's the best briefer and de-briefer for virtually any traumatic incident involving CQB. I've had good debriefings with other officers who have been in gun fights but Grossman brings it all together. Sometimes it's not personal...sometimes it is--like when I find graffiti with my name in it....I always go out there with that switch on. Good on you mate.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Tacitus View Post
                If you haven't read "On Combat" yet get it and read it and keep it handy. It's the best briefer and de-briefer for virtually any traumatic incident involving CQB. I've had good debriefings with other officers who have been in gun fights but Grossman brings it all together. Sometimes it's not personal...sometimes it is--like when I find graffiti with my name in it....I always go out there with that switch on. Good on you mate.
                Funny you mentioned the book. I have read and studied it. I have also passed it on to our entire PD. Some read it and some turned their noses up at it. Strangest thing? The ones who ignored it are the ones who will not carry a BUG,will not wear armor, and who I always hope and pray I never have to depend on for backup!! These same types think it will never happen to them because they are so good. Disgusting to me!
                "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by nitrovic
                  That's a pretty good sentence for state level!! I had a incident just like that a while back. I actually ended up having to shoot somebody a while back, but he survived and all officers survived so everything worked out well. Good to hear your case worked out well.
                  Glad yours worked out also.
                  "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    j706- Sorry to hear about the light sentence. Has he already been formally sentenced? If not and the Probation Department was calling you as part of the pre-plea report, you might still be able to do something with the assistance of your department's management. Send an email (keeping a copy for yourself) to your chief noting the suspect's priors, the risk to the public and fellow officers with the minor amount of time he's being offered and request that the District Attorney be informed that the victim (you) and the department strongly protests this deal.

                    If the DA (an elected official) doesn't want to reconsider his deputy's offer, then a public statement is in order. If your state doesn't currently have a "3 Strikes" law, this case could be a good wake up call. Also, any deal offered by the local prosecutor doesn't necessarily preclude prosecution for federal offenses. See the federal prosecutor for your area, if you've done so on other cases.
                    "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by pulicords View Post
                      j706- Sorry to hear about the light sentence. Has he already been formally sentenced? If not and the Probation Department was calling you as part of the pre-plea report, you might still be able to do something with the assistance of your department's management. Send an email (keeping a copy for yourself) to your chief noting the suspect's priors, the risk to the public and fellow officers with the minor amount of time he's being offered and request that the District Attorney be informed that the victim (you) and the department strongly protests this deal.

                      If the DA (an elected official) doesn't want to reconsider his deputy's offer, then a public statement is in order. If your state doesn't currently have a "3 Strikes" law, this case could be a good wake up call. Also, any deal offered by the local prosecutor doesn't necessarily preclude prosecution for federal offenses. See the federal prosecutor for your area, if you've done so on other cases.
                      Interesting you mention all the above-My chief is a retired (30 year) state trooper. Bottom line is he is ticked. Just today he had a ATF agent in his office. They are going to try to get the US Attorney to pick the case up. Probation does seem to be a little concerned as they called me again today. I will let you know how it goes down.

                      This isn't about me. It is about getting a violent criminal off the streets. How much more proof do they need? These lawyers act and big and bad and love gun control issues but when they get a legitimate case they play with it like its a first time OWI charge. I just can't grasp the reasoning.
                      "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Two things:
                        1) It is about you. In addition to being an officer, you were also a victim and have every right to be upset. You also have every right that any other victim has regarding their case, including the right to demand that justice be served and that something is done to prevent this dangerous felon from victimizing others in the near future. As a professional law enforcement officer, you know better than most just how dangerous this guy is and what he's capable of doing.

                        2) Prosecutors can often, "fail to see the forest through the trees." Being more concerned with getting a conviction, than the real results of that conviction leads to suspects quickly getting out of a custody facility. They learn the system and will do a "better job" at whatever new offenses they commit when they get out. In this case, you have an extremely violent recidivist whose already shown he's willing and able to commit murder. If the prosecutor isn't willing to commit an all out effort to keep this jerk off the streets, who will he make the effort for? Winning a future murder trial isn't (IMHO) as important as preventing a murder when you have the opportunity. This may be the opportunity to save others the grief this guy has already inflicted.

                        Bottom line: This is a major case and the District Attorney or his Deputy should recognize it as such. Trying to clear this case without demanding significant custody time shows a lack of competence. You and apparently your chief recognize this and should be commended for fighting for it. Like the incident itself, sometimes fights require an all out effort to win and this is one of them.

                        Final thought: Have you and your chief considered bringing in the family of the earlier victim(s)? If you do have to go public with this issue, they could be a great resource. Best of luck to you!
                        "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

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                        • #57
                          Thanks pulicords. I am not going to lay down on it. I am going to howl and raise all kinds of stink over it. They can threaten me or what ever but I am not going to go away until they do their job and do it right, just like they demand from us.
                          "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Sentencing this morning 9:00am, state case continued for 90 days. US Marshals picked the squirrel up at noon. US Attorney is taking the case with the state charge put on hold pending the outcome at federal level. I guess it does pay to voice our concerns.
                            "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

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                            • #59
                              Good work. Your persistence apparently is going to pay off!
                              "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

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                              • #60
                                Second guessing is natural and that's why it's always important to have good ethical and moral honest Police Officers in this job.
                                Last edited by Nightshift va; 08-05-2008, 06:39 AM. Reason: content
                                "Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. The MARINES don't have that problem." ....Ronald Reagan

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