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US Supreme Court rules on high speed chases

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  • #16
    All traffic tickets should be paid on a voluntary basis. That way, nobody would risk running.

    Oohhh ...... oooohhhh! An even better idea. We should wear trash bags on our hips instead of holsters. So when you give someone a ticket and they tear it up in your face, you can ask them to throw it away right there! No mess to deal with! Everyone wins!
    Space for rent .........

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    • #17
      I think what most of us are saying, is that what some would conceder minor infractions can lead to bigger things. Some of my stops have!!
      Some of the explanations for not stopping for the police that I have heard are, and my response.
      You have to see this video I was there. Explains #5 http://www.click2houston.com/video/9794735/index.html
      1. I was scared - ----
      Off what? A marked car with lights on the top was going to car jack you?

      2. I wanted to get the car home -----
      Well I’m towing it anyway.

      3. I have no valid license ----
      So running from me will show your driving skills and I won’t ask for it?

      4. I had to make a phone call to tell some one where I’m going to be. ---
      Hell, How did you know before I did?

      5. I heard on the News that you could not chase me.
      That is a city policy. I’m county. And when I’m done with my charges I’m sure they will like talk to you too.

      http://www.click2houston.com/video/9751277/index.html
      Last edited by AKA=Cruz; 05-02-2007, 05:12 PM.
      "An officer has the confidence to stand alone, the courage to make tough decisions, and the compassion to listen to the needs of others. He does not set out to be a leader, but becomes one by the quality of his actions and the integrity of his intent."

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by AKA=Cruz View Post
        I think what most of us are saying, is that what some would conceder minor infractions can lead to bigger things. Some of my stops have!!
        Some of the explanations for not stopping for the police that I have heard are, and my response.
        You have to see this video I was there. Explains #5 http://www.click2houston.com/video/9794735/index.html
        1. I was scared - ----
        Off what? A marked car with lights on the top was going to car jack you?

        2. I wanted to get the car home -----
        Well I’m towing it anyway.

        3. I have no valid license ----
        So running from me will show your driving skills and I won’t ask for it?

        4. I had to make a phone call to tell some one where I’m going to be. ---
        Hell, How did you know before I did?

        5. I heard on the News that you could not chase me.
        That is a city policy. I’m county. And when I’m done with my charges I’m sure they will like talk to you too.

        http://www.click2houston.com/video/9751277/index.html

        As in Houston, this has become a very big issue here in the area I work for. Most teens who have been caught running from the Highway patrol became upset because they thought they couldn't be chased. And all they did was speed. The fact that chase policies have become public it is now leading to people who would normally stop, think to themselfs " if I run, I won't get a ticket". This has in fact put more people in danger because more people are running for no reason. I have also heard the reasons, "I was scared" "My license in suspended" "I didn't have my insurance" and " I didn't think you could chase me". These no chase policies are becoming a monster that is going to hurt us more than help.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ppd101 View Post
          As in Houston, this has become a very big issue here in the area I work for. Most teens who have been caught running from the Highway patrol became upset because they thought they couldn't be chased. And all they did was speed. The fact that chase policies have become public it is now leading to people who would normally stop, think to themselfs " if I run, I won't get a ticket". This has in fact put more people in danger because more people are running for no reason. I have also heard the reasons, "I was scared" "My license in suspended" "I didn't have my insurance" and " I didn't think you could chase me". These no chase policies are becoming a monster that is going to hurt us more than help.
          Policy makes need to pony up and grow some balls. If we need to spend some money UP FRONT and start fighting each lawsuit tooth and nail, then so be it. In the end LESS MONEY WILL BE LOST!!!!!!!!!!!!! The lawyers will go away if WE STOP FREAKING FEEDING THEM.
          Space for rent .........

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ppd101 View Post
            But if you were only pulling the vehicle over for speeding and was unaware of the kidnapping, you would be told to discontinue. That was my point.
            So do we chase all that run under any circumstance regarless of the danger to the rest of the community or ourselves on the WAY off chance that Jeffery Dahmer is behind the wheel?

            I'm all for chasing as long as the benefit of catching them outweighs the danger to the community. But this must be judged by the KNOWN facts at the time of the pursuit not a bunch of what ifs.
            Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Chief Wiggum View Post
              So do we chase all that run under any circumstance regarless of the danger to the rest of the community or ourselves on the WAY off chance that Jeffery Dahmer is behind the wheel?

              I'm all for chasing as long as the benefit of catching them outweighs the danger to the community. But this must be judged by the KNOWN facts at the time of the pursuit not a bunch of what ifs.
              NO...Pursuit safety should be determined by the initiating officer and field supervisors. We have a radio and other units to contain a suspect in the area or in sight. We shouldn’t just say let them go because he can out run us or just committed a minor infraction. The longer a pursuit is going, the more it is in our favor by being able to have other units responding to the area. The ones that bail as soon as the lights come on are most likely to get away.
              "An officer has the confidence to stand alone, the courage to make tough decisions, and the compassion to listen to the needs of others. He does not set out to be a leader, but becomes one by the quality of his actions and the integrity of his intent."

              Comment


              • #22
                The unsafe part about a pursuit is the way the Chiefs have set the policy. Most agencies have the same pursuit policy only two units unless primary asks for more. No paralleling the pursuit, no responding to the area for the inevitable bail-out. I suspect this policy was contrived by the media and our chiefs bit on it cuz they haven’t been cops for so long they have no clue what needs to be done.

                The G-man pursuit policy is this. Everybody rolls. I mean everybody. Flood the area with cops cars all flashing lights and sirens. Give the poor bastards who are in this maniacs path some chance to know that something bad is coming their way. get peoples attention focused and if possible get main streets blocked in the pursuits path. Then when you’ve got enough cops in the area block the idiot in. When he rams your cars cap him. Of course the libs will say that you will be killing evey snot nosed punk in town. to which I reply "no, just one."

                I know somebody is going to say that we will crash into each other and that may be true with the hot shots we got now who, with the new policies, get into maybe two pursuits a year. But when everybody starts getting involved in every pursuit we will get good at not getting tunnel vision. the riskiest pursuit is your first.

                The thing that most people don’t get about Traffic only pursuits is that for the most part they aren’t driving that way because we are chasing them, we are chasing them because they are driving that way. They were breaking traffic laws when we first saw them, that’s the point.
                Last edited by Garbage Man; 05-04-2007, 04:39 PM.
                Originally posted by FJDave
                GM, you have just set the bar that much higher for the rest of us in our witty, sarcastic responses. I yield to you! Good job, kind Sir!

                District B13
                "We are not cops nor Feds." yet he still poses as an officer Hmmmm


                Grant us grace, fearlessly, to contend against evil and to make no peace with oppression.--WWII memorial

                "I have loved justice and hated iniquity, therefore I die in exile."

                Pope Gregory V II

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                • #23
                  Chief Wiggum. I have never said that some pursuits should be never be terminated. I have discontinued many myself. But it should be on a case by case basis. Public safety should be an issue. But I have had to discontinue several chases when there was only the suspect and I on the road. If it was 3pm in a busy area, maybe the traffic could slow the suspect down enough for us to stop him. But again, with it being that busy, it should be up to the officer chasing to make that decision.

                  But to play devils advocate.

                  Why chase for bank robberies. It was only money. Why chase for murder suspects. Most of the time, if your chasing a murder suspect, you know who it is. So why chase him. He is putting more lives in danger by running. Burglar suspects. Again, just a property crime. If restricting pursuits is to protect the public, I can see no reason to chase anyone for anything.

                  But as we all know, we have to do our jobs. And the supreme court even said, to let someone go because he doesn't want to stop is like letting a suspect escape. The supreme court said that we have to do our jobs and have now given us some protection doing it.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ppd101 View Post
                    Why chase for bank robberies. It was only money. Why chase for murder suspects. Most of the time, if your chasing a murder suspect, you know who it is. So why chase him. He is putting more lives in danger by running. Burglar suspects. Again, just a property crime. If restricting pursuits is to protect the public, I can see no reason to chase anyone for anything.
                    You chase bank robbers and all armed robbers til the wheels fall off because they are a continuing threat to the community. If they robbed once they will do it again, and next time they could pull the trigger. Like we say here: An armed robbery is just a flinch away from a homicide. IMHO the need to catch them will just about always outweigh the danger caused by the pursuit, as long as it's a KNOWN armed robber and not just someone theorizing that it could be one and that's why they are running.

                    Property crimes would depend on the totality of the circumstances. We would certianly pursue but if the pursuit became completely insane then the danger to the public may outweigh the need to catch the suspect.

                    The homicide suspect is kind of interesting. Most likely we would chase untill the wheels fell off but I could see circumstances where that might not happen. Depending on the nature of the homicide (one where the suspect is unlikely to kill again, which is most homicides) and, if as you said, we had the suspect identified, then at least in theory I could see a pursuit being terminated for being too dangerous. I don't think anyone would (or should) actually terminate it, including myself, but it's possible.

                    The only point I was trying to make earlier was that we have to make our decisions on whether or not to pursue based on KNOWN facts, not on why they might be running. We all know that if somone is running for a traffic violation then they probably did something more serious but I've seen people run because they've had a suspended license.
                    Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Chief Wiggum View Post
                      So do we chase all that run under any circumstance regarless of the danger to the rest of the community or ourselves on the WAY off chance that Jeffery Dahmer is behind the wheel?

                      I'm all for chasing as long as the benefit of catching them outweighs the danger to the community. But this must be judged by the KNOWN facts at the time of the pursuit not a bunch of what ifs.
                      The "danger to the community" is from NOT chasing ....... everything. As soon as you start saying "well it is only for traffic," then the everyday person says "it is only for traffic ....... he can't chase." Then the "danger to the community" increases BECAUSE MORE PEOPLE WILL RUN!!!!!!!!!!
                      Space for rent .........

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Chief Wiggum View Post
                        You chase bank robbers and all armed robbers til the wheels fall off because they are a continuing threat to the community. If they robbed once they will do it again, and next time they could pull the trigger. ???????????? What is this? The Minority Report? You are chasing because of POSSIBLE FUTURE EVENTS????? That makes zero sense. Like we say here: An armed robbery is just a flinch away from a homicide. ?????????? That is a BIG leap. Again, you are chasing because of a possible future event????? IMHO the need to catch them will just about always outweigh the danger caused by the pursuit, as long as it's a KNOWN armed robber and not just someone theorizing that it could be one and that's why they are running.

                        Property crimes would depend on the totality of the circumstances. ??????? You are putting people at risk for property??????? And property is justifiable as a greater risk to society than a chase????? We would certianly pursue but if the pursuit became completely insane then the danger to the public may outweigh the need to catch the suspect.

                        The homicide suspect is kind of interesting. Most likely we would chase untill the wheels fell off but I could see circumstances where that might not happen. Depending on the nature of the homicide (one where the suspect is unlikely to kill again, which is most homicides) and, if as you said, we had the suspect identified, then at least in theory I could see a pursuit being terminated for being too dangerous. I don't think anyone would (or should) actually terminate it, including myself, but it's possible.???????? So you are saying that it is okay to chase robbers because they are more likely to eventually KILL someone, but someone WHO HAS ALREADY KILLED is less likely to again?????
                        The only point I was trying to make earlier was that we have to make our decisions on whether or not to pursue based on KNOWN facts, not on why they might be running. We all know that if somone is running for a traffic violation then they probably did something more serious but I've seen people run because they've had a suspended license.
                        I say so what as to why someone runs! Who cares what else they may be hiding. They are RUNNING from the police. We let any crime "that is known" be a gauge to stop a pursuit, then guess freaking what? THOSE SMALL VIOLATIONS will be the standard for those to run.

                        THE BIGGER PICTURE IS IN PLAY HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                        Space for rent .........

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I believe it was few years back that the L.A.P.D was going to restrict their pursuits. And before the new policy was to go into place, two officers attempted to stop a vehicle for a minor traffic vioation. (I believe it was for a turn signal or somthing).
                          As the officers were stopping the vehicle, the occupants (Gang Members)began shooting automatic weapons at the officers.
                          Now my question is, If the officers were not allowed to chase this vehicle, what would have the gang members done later if they decided to run and now the police were not behind them.

                          Lets face it everyone. If someone robs a store, burglarizes a business, committes a homicide, snatches a kid off the street, they will violate those minor traffic laws, that are so taboo to chase for, in their attempt to get away. Yes, some will be someone not wanting a ticket or is running because they are suspended or have minor warrants. So lets get with our DA's and have these people prosecuted more harshly. I believe someone said before as have I said, if we punish people who run from the police with stiff punishements like,
                          1 towing and keeping their vehicle's
                          2 charging them with driving a vehicle after being convicted of Fleeing, (Make it a Felony)
                          3 Mandatory 1 year in jail
                          we would have taken the rewards away from running from the police.

                          These minor traffic violation that people say we shouldn't chase for cause more accidents and deaths (when people are not being chased) than all the chases in the U.S combined.

                          I might offend some people in here, but how many of those crashes involving citizens were caused in part by the citizen not paying attention to the road. Loud stereo drowing out the sirens, Cell phones up to their ears yapping about something stupid. Trying to beat the yellow light and getting T-boned.
                          How many of us have been running code to a call and someone pull out in front of us. It's the same thing with someone running from us. Pursuits are dangerous, but so is shooting at someone who is shooting at you.
                          If you miss and your bullet hits a citizen, is it your fault?

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                          • #28
                            Keep looking because in a world getting more and more morally banckrupt everyday, these victories are going to shrink, so enjoy 'em while you can. That said I am overjoyed the Judges' ruled correctly on this one.
                            I Peter 2:13 “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; (14) Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.” Visit 10-4 Ministries

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Silvershield View Post
                              Keep looking because in a world getting more and more morally banckrupt everyday, these victories are going to shrink, so enjoy 'em while you can. That said I am overjoyed the Judges' ruled correctly on this one.
                              I agree with you on this. Seems like the court has for a long time given all the breaks/advantages to the BGs. About time we won one.
                              Space for rent .........

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by scratched13 View Post
                                The "danger to the community" is from NOT chasing ....... everything. As soon as you start saying "well it is only for traffic," then the everyday person says "it is only for traffic ....... he can't chase." Then the "danger to the community" increases BECAUSE MORE PEOPLE WILL RUN!!!!!!!!!!
                                I'm not saying don't chase for traffic (I have many times) but if that chase becomes very high-risk (excessive speed, heavy traffic area, high pedestrian traffic, weather conditions, etc...) then we may need to terminate the pursuit. A constant evaluation of the risk to the public vs the need to catch them is important. I'd hate to have to explain why I continued a pursuit for a traffic violation at 100mph through residential neighborhoods that results in a crash that kills bystanders only to find out the only reason he ran is because he had a suspended license.

                                When someone decides to run is it usually for something more serious than traffic? Yes, but not always. But unless we KNOW what that reason is we can't just cross our fingers and hope that you find something more serious if it ends horribly.

                                Again, I'm not saying don't chase for traffic. But, it's not that hard for that pursuit to become more dangerous than it's worth based on the known factors.
                                Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead.

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