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LEOSA Or State Pistol Permits On Indian Reservations

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  • LEOSA Or State Pistol Permits On Indian Reservations

    A group of us are planning an ATV ride this summer. It will go through a reservation. Are there any reservations that recognize LEOSA or pistol permits issued by states? My assumption is no, since they are sovereign, but I am still interested in hearing from others on this issue.

  • #2
    You will need to check with the individual reservations. On many of them, neither LEOSA nor a state issued permit/license will save you. My buddies and I did some camping on a reservation in AZ. Don’t remember who my buddy contacted, but a representative from the tribal council granted us permission to carry (based on our LE credentials) and the tribal police chief issued all of us permits to carry for the time we were on the reservation.

    Didn’t cost us anything, just a few hoops to jump through and a bit of red tape, but needless to say, we were all glad that we were able to “legally” carry while on the reservation. Our camping trip went well and without incident.
    Getting shot hurts! Don't under estimate the power of live ammo. A .22LR can kill you! I personally feel that it's best to avoid being shot by any caliber. Your vest may stop the bullet, but you'll still get a nice bruise or other injury to remember the experience.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Jim1648 View Post
      A group of us are planning an ATV ride this summer. It will go through a reservation. Are there any reservations that recognize LEOSA or pistol permits issued by states? My assumption is no, since they are sovereign, but I am still interested in hearing from others on this issue.
      That's a good question, I hadn't thought of that. I know when driving to Colorado from California the way runs thru several reservation with gas stations just off of them. So technically your on reservation land. Good thing I wasn't stopped.
      I'd rather be judged by 12 rather carried by 6.

      It should be noted that any and all post that are made are based on my own thought and opinions. And are not related or implied to represent the department I work for.

      Comment


      • #4
        That corridor is safe. It’s part of the Federal Highway System.
        Now go home and get your shine box!

        Comment


        • #5
          This is a tricky area.
          Ever been to the Blackfoot Reservation in Montana? Bullet-riddled cars line the streets of Browning like it's Beirut. Crime is a huge problem on many reservations. You're safer in Detroit than some places.

          Here's the deal though:


          Tribes can enact their own regulations, including regulations which may be contrary to other laws.

          Tribal law enforcement often do not recognize the authority of other agencies. If anything, there may be long simmering tensions regarding outside LE agencies and they may take great umbrage to the presence of armed personnel (off-duty or not) on their land.

          Make sure you have ROCK SOLID information about what is permitted and what is not. You do not want to find yourself dealing with tribal police or tribal courts for an avoidable situation.

          Last edited by Ratatatat; 06-30-2018, 11:55 AM.
          Thousands of people have talent. I might as well congratulate you for having eyes in your head. The one and only thing that counts is: Do you have staying power?

          -Sir Noel Coward

          Comment


          • #6
            Check this link...it breaks down by tribal area.

            http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/tribal_law_ccw.pdf

            I couldn't find where it addressed LEOSA, it does address CCW and such.

            Wondering if, since LEOSA is a Federal law....and tribal law is inferior to the Federal law...interesting thread.
            Last edited by Kraut0783; 06-30-2018, 03:07 PM.

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            • #7
              ^That's an excellent resource. Thanks for posting.

              I only skimmed it but one thing did jump out: 800 tribes = 800 ways of doing things.

              Some required written permission from the tribal chief of police. Some required written permission from tribal council. Some recognized state law. On and on.

              Anyone who has had any dealings with tribal codes can attest that there is often little consistency between the tribes, or if any external authority is recognized. For example, I've seen tribal regs that state if a tribal member finds an eagle carcass while wandering about in the woods on the reservation, it's theirs to keep. All they have to do is stop by the Tribal DNR to get a free permit. No questions will be asked about what happened to the eagle.

              RE: tribal law is inferior to Federal law. I'm not a lawyer, but I can say this: it's more complicated than that. Tribes are sovereign nations with the ability to self-govern. On some reservations, BIA police are present. On most, it's tribal police. Whether LEOSA is recognized may vary widely.

              Best advice: do your homework before going beeboping about with your heater on a reservation. Assume nothing.
              Thousands of people have talent. I might as well congratulate you for having eyes in your head. The one and only thing that counts is: Do you have staying power?

              -Sir Noel Coward

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              • #8
                Very true about the self govern...but, FBI is still responsible for all felonies investigations on Tribal land. So, they do have to relent to Federal law on some level.

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                • #9
                  True, federal law can be enforced on tribal lands. The question here is does a federal law that permits concealed carry by LEOs supercede tribal regulations?? That's where things get murky. I suspect most tribes would say no.

                  Note that while LEOSA does not specifically address the issue regarding tribal sovereignty, it does say:

                  This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--
                  prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.
                  Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified retired law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm

                  http://le.nra.org/leosa.aspx
                  So basically state and local governments can enact contrary restrictions....


                  I suppose a LEO could get charged for unauthorized carry on a reservation, claim the LEOSA as their defense, and hope their case eventually goes before the Supreme Court for a formal rendering of what the act allows and doesn't allow, but good sense dictates to be smart about this situation.
                  Thousands of people have talent. I might as well congratulate you for having eyes in your head. The one and only thing that counts is: Do you have staying power?

                  -Sir Noel Coward

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Just lose your gun for the seven years it takes to get in front of SCROTUS.
                    Now go home and get your shine box!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ratatatat View Post
                      True, federal law can be enforced on tribal lands. The question here is does a federal law that permits concealed carry by LEOs supercede tribal regulations?? That's where things get murky. I suspect most tribes would say no.

                      Note that while LEOSA does not specifically address the issue regarding tribal sovereignty, it does say:





                      So basically state and local governments can enact contrary restrictions....


                      I suppose a LEO could get charged for unauthorized carry on a reservation, claim the LEOSA as their defense, and hope their case eventually goes before the Supreme Court for a formal rendering of what the act allows and doesn't allow, but good sense dictates to be smart about this situation.

                      All I know is that I don’t wanna be the test case.
                      Getting shot hurts! Don't under estimate the power of live ammo. A .22LR can kill you! I personally feel that it's best to avoid being shot by any caliber. Your vest may stop the bullet, but you'll still get a nice bruise or other injury to remember the experience.

                      Comment


                      • Ratatatat
                        Ratatatat commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Precisely.

                      • Kraut0783
                        Kraut0783 commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Let's get some rookie to try, and we'll see what happens =)

                      • HI629
                        HI629 commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Or some salty old timer who doesn’t take s**t from anyone. We had “that guy” in our group. While most of us got permitted and jumped through the minimal hoops the tribal police department requested, this guy refused.

                        He tends to be very outspoken and quite vocal on a number of issues. While on the reservation, we encountered one tribal police officer who stopped us for being in an “off limits area” after hours. We apparently misread our map and ended up in a place where we weren’t supposed to be.

                        A couple of guys in our group kept “that guy” quiet while the rest of us negotiated safe passage. After a few minutes of shooting the s**t, and figuring out where we went wrong, the friendly officer sent us on our way. He did check the credentials and tribal carry permit for both of the group members he had direct contact with.

                        So glad that some of us knew how to “play nice”. Had “that guy” been the one to be in contact with the officer, I’m sure things would have been a lot different.

                    • #12
                      I took an interesting class a couple of years ago called, "The Jurisdictional Minefield of Indian Country". Very accurate class title. Bear in mind that what I learned was specific to Arizona so take it for what it is if you're not here.

                      The way I was taught, Federal laws are applicable to everyone (Indian and Non-Indian alike) in Indian Country. State laws can only be enforced against Non-Indians and may be enforced by the Tribal Police, but through the State Courts and only by Tribal Police that are AZPOST certified. Tribal CRIMINAL laws may only be enforced against Indians through the Tribal Court, but Tribal CIVIL laws such as traffic laws, etc, may be enforced by the Tribal Courts against Non-Indians as well.

                      The tribe is free to enact a Tribal Civil law against carrying firearms, in which case you may lose your weapon and pay a fine. Unless you are violating a state or federal criminal law, you probably won't be subject to arrest, as LEOSA should preclude prosecution for that. You could look up the tribal code online, if it's there, but I haven't had a whole lot of luck finding those in the past.

                      Good luck-
                      1*

                      Ten dash eight!

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by thirdgod View Post
                        I took an interesting class a couple of years ago called, "The Jurisdictional Minefield of Indian Country". Very accurate class title. Bear in mind that what I learned was specific to Arizona so take it for what it is if you're not here.

                        The way I was taught, Federal laws are applicable to everyone (Indian and Non-Indian alike) in Indian Country. State laws can only be enforced against Non-Indians and may be enforced by the Tribal Police, but through the State Courts and only by Tribal Police that are AZPOST certified. Tribal CRIMINAL laws may only be enforced against Indians through the Tribal Court, but Tribal CIVIL laws such as traffic laws, etc, may be enforced by the Tribal Courts against Non-Indians as well.

                        The tribe is free to enact a Tribal Civil law against carrying firearms, in which case you may lose your weapon and pay a fine. Unless you are violating a state or federal criminal law, you probably won't be subject to arrest, as LEOSA should preclude prosecution for that. You could look up the tribal code online, if it's there, but I haven't had a whole lot of luck finding those in the past.

                        Good luck-
                        From what I know ................this is very similar to Iowa .

                        On the ONE settlement (NOT a Reservation ) in Iowa that has a tribal PD they are all Iowa ILEA certified and use both State and Tribal court systems depending on the charge and the person.

                        I think all non tribal members are handled under the state court system. There have been a couple murders on the settlement that have been tried in state court and one in Federal Court
                        Since some people need to be told by notes in crayon .......Don't PM me with without prior permission. If you can't discuss the situation in the open forum ----it must not be that important

                        My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

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                        • #14
                          We have a contentious relationship in NY to say the least. We’re not really welcome, and I’m not keen on going. Everyone wins.
                          I make my living on Irish welfare.

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Someone else in out group found out that Public Law 280 applies and that we should be good on all Minnesota Reservations, except Red Lake. Red Lake Reservation is unique as the only "closed reservation" in Minnesota.

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