Live Fire House (SWAT guys)

[NARC999]

Recently, during a LFH scenario, a fellow operator fired his M4 from behind and about a half foot to the right of me. He was engaging a target just in front and slightly to the right of me.
I've been an operator for over 5 years and served in the military. I understand the concept of train like you fight and am not scared of weapons being fired near me, but..... I cannot see the, "train like you fight" necessity in this particular scenario. I felt this was a serious safety violation.
Looking for comments?

[SO535]

Risk is inherent in law enforcement and even more so when conducting SWAT operations. If the risk in training is too much for you then you need to decide if thats what you want to do.

[bluezy]

Live Fire

I couldn't disagree more. Being a little nervouse about a operator firing that close to you when maybe someone else has a shot is not unique. I have had several LEO's fire shots that they should not have becasue they got tunnel vision on the target (Ive done this to) THe problem is that it's unusual for SWAT teams to train enough so that shooting close to each other is second nature. The military spends 1,000x's more time doing this type of training and they still have accidents all the time and people die. My opinion is that after training the team should sit down and talk about what went wrong and fix it. Just my opinion

[NARC999]

Risk is inherent in law enforcement and even more so when conducting SWAT operations. If the risk in training is too much for you then you need to decide if thats what you want to do.

I appreciate your opinion. I'm very aware of the risks.

To clarify my question, What is everyones opinion concerning firing past (from behind) another operator, in close proximitely (less 2 feet) ,in a fluid (everyones moving all directions) environment.

[NARC999]

I couldn't disagree more. Being a little nervouse about a operator firing that close to you when maybe someone else has a shot is not unique. I have had several LEO's fire shots that they should not have becasue they got tunnel vision on the target (Ive done this to) THe problem is that it's unusual for SWAT teams to train enough so that shooting close to each other is second nature. The military spends 1,000x's more time doing this type of training and they still have accidents all the time and people die. My opinion is that after training the team should sit down and talk about what went wrong and fix it. Just my opinion

You and I think a like. Too many police swat teams think they are really high speed. When in fact, the talent is there, but the training hours aren't. We haven't been in live fire in the shoot house for 6 months... little to quick for those type of close calls...

[bluezy]

round 2

just to add a side note, since I wasn''t there it's hard to offer a really valid opinion however if it made you nervouse, then bring it up, fix it, reherse it, etc etc. Just like when you where in the military, engineer tape practice, day blank, night blank, day live fire, night live fire. Practice practice practice. Slow is smooth.....smooth is fast...fast is deadly

RLTW

[bluezy]

round 3

When i was in the military my unit was doing a "sim-fire" in an old school. Of course the "bad guys" made it extremely hard on us (knowing our tactics) and we were gettign hemmed up in the hallway. My ATL was is front of me and when we got fired on, I engaged the bad guy over his right shoulder (safely in my opinion) ATL decides he doesn't like the stack and jumps out literally directly in front of my muzzle as I was engaging. His K-pot had a pink streak across it from one of my sim rounds. I died many a death before that week was over.....who's fault was it?? Training training training. This is one of my reasons for telling our SWAT leaders to stop changing our tactics and do the easiest tactic that require little in the way of memorization.

[SO535]

I appreciate your opinion. I'm very aware of the risks.

To clarify my question, What is everyones opinion concerning firing past (from behind) another operator, in close proximitely (less 2 feet) ,in a fluid (everyones moving all directions) environment.

I made the comment without any sacasm and didnt mean to take a jab at you in any way. I'm glad you clarified the scenario.

If its your field of fire then nobody should be shooting over you shoulder. That in my book would be a no-no.

[NARC999]

When i was in the military my unit was doing a "sim-fire" in an old school. Of course the "bad guys" made it extremely hard on us (knowing our tactics) and we were gettign hemmed up in the hallway. My ATL was is front of me and when we got fired on, I engaged the bad guy over his right shoulder (safely in my opinion) ATL decides he doesn't like the stack and jumps out literally directly in front of my muzzle as I was engaging. His K-pot had a pink streak across it from one of my sim rounds. I died many a death before that week was over.....who's fault was it?? Training training training. This is one of my reasons for telling our SWAT leaders to stop changing our tactics and do the easiest tactic that require little in the way of memorization.

Well, although I never stated where I wanted to go with this, you've proved my point. Who's fault... nobodies... on the operational level. Safety wise, when the lawsuit came down, who's head would have been on a stick.

My point is not to prove tactics or call someone at fault. Simply to ask, in my situation and yours (if it had been live ammo). If someone would have died, would it have been worth it. Training is fantastic, Training like you fight is even better, but some chances just aren't worth taking unless its the real deal.

For example, on the range, do we not do certain things we are shown due to safety reasons. In the military, do they not have "war" procedures, and "peacetime" procedures. All based on the necessity to take extra chances. Do we need to shoot past someones head in training... I don't think so.... Is it possible this could happen in real life, ,,,yes... Should we train it,,,yes.. but with sim munitions or miles or airsoft... My question is, considering the circumstances, is the risk worth the gain?

[NARC999]

I made the comment without any sacasm and didnt mean to take a jab at you in any way. I'm glad you clarified the scenario.

If its your field of fire then nobody should be shooting over you shoulder. That in my book would be a no-no.

I'll admit, I felt some pain... but it's hard to re-create a scenario in words. I think I clarified it and apreciate your response.

[bluezy]

round...??

Narc:

great post. I learned a lot from my ordeal...its why I beleave that we should always strive for simple simple simple. Live firse excercise for the average 8 hours a month swat team should be slow, very slow with many safety peramiters. Train correctly, train to standards, forget what Seal team 49 does and do what works for a beat cop with a few hours a month can do. Also, always wear all your equipment, and get a back plate!