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  • Would you shoot?

    I had a discussion the other day about different possible scenarios and wanted to know what others here had to say.

    Here is the situation:

    Say you are alone dealing with a suspect. He ends up with your OC spray (or pulls out his own). Would you consider that enough threat to use deadly force? In the scenario assume your backdrop is good, just you and the bad guy, back up is at least a few minute away.

    If you say no shoot, what would you do to resolve the situation?

  • #2
    There's really not enough information there to make a decision.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by INCOP
      Would you consider that enough threat to use deadly force?
      Absolutely not.

      Many other options including disengage to safe distance and using other less-lethal (Taser).

      The threat of having OC on a person does not justify using deadly force. OC spray is not going to kill you. You can fight through it. Now, persay the suspect sprays you. Now he is going for your gun or is using some type of force that will result in great bodily harm or death, then I would use deadly force.

      On the other hand, suspect has taser and is brining it up to point it at you, absolutely.

      Surprised that your academy, or at least FTO or other officers, had not gone through these type of scenarios prior. Been through two police academies, and both have stressed this type of situation and the alternatives other than deadly force.

      K9
      Last edited by K9 Police; 09-06-2005, 03:00 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Depends if he sprays or not. If he sprays and misses yes I would shoot, because a reasonable person would believe that I could have been incapacitated to the point of him retrieving my weapon putting me in fear of GBH or death.
        "I am the guy that keeps Mister Dead in his pocket." -'Mad' Max Rockatansky

        "An Englewood Ranger is no stranger to Danger.." -Unk

        Good Night Chesty Where Ever You Are.

        A Good Friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you in the cell saying, "That was Awesome."

        Second City Cop

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        • #5
          Woah.... If he sprays and MISSES, you are going to use deadly force?

          Wow, I'm speechless...

          K9

          Comment


          • #6
            "because a reasonable person would believe that I could have been incapacitated to the point of him retrieving my weapon putting me in fear of GBH or death."

            Or would a resonable person believe that the suspect has to actual make the initial movement, not just the possibility of it.

            Given the original scenario, the suspect sprays you. However, he uses it as a diversion and runs away. Are you going to use deadly force? I would hope not, or have fun in court. If he is coming at you and attempting to disarm or using force that causes great bodily harm or death, you are most certainly justified. But just holding it, or even spraying it without some sort of movement towards you to make you believe that your life is in danger, I completely disagree.

            K9
            Last edited by K9 Police; 09-06-2005, 03:12 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by K9 Police
              "because a reasonable person would believe that I could have been incapacitated to the point of him retrieving my weapon putting me in fear of GBH or death."

              Or would a resonable person believe that the suspect has to actual make the initial movement, not just the possibility of it.

              Given the original scenario, the suspect sprays you. However, he uses it as a diversion and runs away. If he is coming at you and attempting to disarm or using force that causes great bodily harm or death, you are most certainly justified. But just holding it, or even spraying it, I completely disagree.

              K9
              I wouldnt wait to see if he runs away or comes at me after he sprayed it. Thats just me though. I'll take the 3 or 4 day suspension, if it even came to that.
              "I am the guy that keeps Mister Dead in his pocket." -'Mad' Max Rockatansky

              "An Englewood Ranger is no stranger to Danger.." -Unk

              Good Night Chesty Where Ever You Are.

              A Good Friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you in the cell saying, "That was Awesome."

              Second City Cop

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Pedro56
                I wouldnt wait to see if he runs away or comes at me after he sprayed it. Thats just me though. I'll take the 3 or 4 day suspension, if it even came to that.
                Or your job, or your home.....

                I understand your point, of which having OC used against you can incapacitate you to the point where a person can overpower you and possibly take your gun or use violence against you. Although, just having it in a suspect's hand or even spraying it at you, would not be enough for me to justify using deadly force and be confident enough that I would still have a job, along with my home and possessions.

                K9
                Last edited by K9 Police; 09-06-2005, 03:18 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  After being sprayed with OC spray, I can honestly say that I'd seriously consider it being that I was greatly incompacitated. What happens if they manage to get your gun out now that your unable to see and in furious pain?

                  I am going home at the end of every shift no matter what.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Pepper spray is very low in the use of force, but it is considered deadly force if used by a suspect. I know what it will do to me, and needless to say, I am going home.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Posted by K9 Police:

                      Surprised that your academy, or at least FTO or other officers, had not gone through these type of scenarios prior. Been through two police academies, and both have stressed this type of situation and the alternatives other than deadly force.

                      We did cover it in the academy and there were a number of different oppnions as to what one should do. It seems like that might be the case on this forum also. Which is good in my opinion. It makes me think about it before it happens. As far as FTO, my department does not have an FTO program.

                      I know there are a lot of different ways this could go on the street, so I will be even more specific. Let's say you are attempting to make and arrest, or at least cuff someone, and they resist. No punches or kicks, just wrestling around. You get your OC out to spray and the bad guy gets control of it before you spray. He points it at you........now what do you do!

                      I think I would shoot. Even though I have been hit with OC and had to fight and call for backup, I don't think I want to risk I will be able to do the same with a bad guy possibly wanting me hurt or dead. Now if he just grabs the spray and tries to get away, I will hold fire.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MPD-A9
                        Pepper spray is very low in the use of force, but it is considered deadly force if used by a suspect.
                        Considered by who? Your department? Your state? Case law?

                        I would love to see case law or a department's policy that states that deadly force is authorized when OC spray is used against an officer.

                        K9
                        Last edited by K9 Police; 09-06-2005, 04:41 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by INCOP
                          I had a discussion the other day about different possible scenarios and wanted to know what others here had to say.

                          Here is the situation:

                          Say you are alone dealing with a suspect. He ends up with your OC spray (or pulls out his own). Would you consider that enough threat to use deadly force? In the scenario assume your backdrop is good, just you and the bad guy, back up is at least a few minute away.

                          If you say no shoot, what would you do to resolve the situation?

                          If I shot the suspect because he sprayed me with OC, there is no ifs ands or buts, I'm going to get court martialed. Of course a civilian law enforcement is/might be different.

                          Also, I know its not a good gauge on all situations but from watching Cops and those Wildest Police Videos shows, everytime the suspect used OC, it was to escape and never once did the police officer ever draw his weapon.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Also, I know its totally different enviroment between military police and civilian law enforcement but here is our escalation of force chart:

                            Verbal Commands
                            Physical Apprehension (hand to hand)
                            Handcuffs
                            OC or CS
                            Police Batons (usally PR-24 or Asp)
                            Military Working Dogs (K9)
                            Non-Leathal Weapons (bean bags etc. when available)
                            Firearms


                            We can only go up the scale one spot unless all the other methods below that have be deployed unsuccessfully.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Handcuffs=use of force? Interesting...

                              I recall something in case law concerning use of disabling chemical agents against law enforcement officers being considered justification for deadly force.... but I'm having a hard time finding it.

                              This is why we get sprayed with it: so we know how our bodies react and so we can anticipate the reaction, and articulate it later if need be.

                              If I get sprayed I've got 10 or 15 seconds of usefulness, then the BG has the upper hand. Nothing says you have to get hurt or give in. I am also going home at the end of my shift. Keeping your "window of opportunity in mind," what are you going to do once you're sprayed? I think most have training to go "hands-on" pretty fast, and hopefully prevent the situation from escalating.

                              I think "threatened use of disabling chemical agent" is a far below actual use though, and would not shoot someone who was pointing a canister of pepper spray at me. I'd definetly be ID'ing myself as a police officer and be issuing clear verbal commands at maximum volume.
                              Last edited by Resq14; 09-06-2005, 09:34 PM.
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