Probation Officers Unarmed???

[jdlong]

Hello,

I posted the following reply to a question about the arming of probation officers and off-duty carry in the California forum. Wanted to find out what other Probation and Parole agencies throughout the nation are doing. As I state below...I'm a Probation Officer in Northern California. I can't imagine stepping out of my house unarmed, considering who we deal with every day (felons and parolees). Officer Safety is number one, I'm far from a gung-ho, cowboy officer...I just like to go home to my family at night. Wondering if other states are arming their Probation Officers. It amazes me that it's actually a debate!!!

I'm a Probation Officer in Northern California. Our entire department is armed, Glock 22 .40's. I'm simply amazed that there is still a debate whether Probation Officers should be armed or not. Are you kidding me?? Last time I checked, EVERY PERSON I COME IN CONTACT WITH IS A CONVICTED FELON...many are past parolee's that have re-offended and for some ridiculous reason have been placed on probation again. Every home I visit I've come across what we call here the "3 for 1" deal. I come across two unknown probationers or parolee's that I had no idea were in the home. Who knows if they're a parolee at large looking at going back for a long time. They have no idea I might be doing just a routine, "how are things going?" visit with my probationer. How many of our clients haven't slept for 7 days when we visit due to their current "tweak" run with meth?? Any danger there??
Anyway, I'll stop ranting and raving. I'm just amazed that departments are choosing to send their officers out in the field unarmed. I'm armed from the moment I step out my front door to the moment I get home...and off-duty. I'm not a gung-ho, cowboy officer either...I carry concealed, I treat my probationers with respect...I just want to go home to my family every night. Regarding off-duty carry, it's up to your department Chief. Considering Probation Officers have the power and repsonsibility to recommend and send defendants to prison, I'm a firm believer in off-duty carry as well. I don't want to be out for dinner with my wife and run into a parolee that has had 10 years to think about the Probation Officer that sent him to prison...if you know what I mean. I can walk without eyes behind my back in my community due to how I treat probationers...but the reality is we work with the worst of the worst...ALL THE TIME.

Be safe out there. Sorry for the long response. I just think the arming of P.O.'s is a no-brainer.

jdlong

[WHC166]

In VT our probation officers carry nothing but handcuffs, and are NOT considered LEO's...

[jdlong]

In VT our probation officers carry nothing but handcuffs, and are NOT considered LEO's...

Thanks for the reply. Amazing that their unarmed and not considered LEO's!! As I said, our searches, warrants, arrests, and routine daily field work is with the worst....felons and parolees (nobody else). I would say that makes for a pretty high officer safety risk. We have statewide jurisdiction in California in regards to any probationer and parolee. We can arrest for any Penal Code violation as well, probationer or not. I can't imagine conducting a search of a felon or parolee's home with the possibility of going 10-15 (or knowing I'm going to hook him) unarmed. Like I said...I like going home at night. We work with our S.O. Deputies and local City Officers on searches and arrests regularly as well. My fellow officers would certainly question my sanity for carrying a set of cuffs for safety (in fact, they wouldn't make entry with me!!!) Tell me they at least wear vests and carry OC?? Be safe. Thanks!

[ftlaudcop]

as far as i know, the bad guy is a state prisoner coming under
dept of correction supervision, any aggressive action he takes, your justafied for what ever reasonable force is needed.

however is any chance you can youanother agency to assist
if a arrest is expected, call the police tohelp ya out.


www.schackdady.com

[jdlong]

as far as i know, the bad guy is a state prisoner coming under
dept of correction supervision, any aggressive action he takes, your justafied for what ever reasonable force is needed.

however is any chance you can youanother agency to assist
if a arrest is expected, call the police tohelp ya out.


www.schackdady.com

No doubt. I work with our S.O. Deputies and local City Officers on a daily basis...in addition to my fellow armed P.O's. Wouldn't consider conducting a high-risk warrant execution or probation search without plenty of brothers with me. I'm just amazed that there are actually agencies out there NOT arming their Probation Officers. Can't think of a higher risk situation than conducting a warrant execution or probation search of a known convicted felon. As I said, every minute we spend in the field is with the worst of the worst...no other calls we deal with. In California, we don't work for Corrections...we're a county agency with the S.O.'s Our primary role is the supervision of county felons. Of course, we always run across the surprise parolee that doesn't feel like going back to prison.

Thanks for the response. Be safe!

[WHC166]

Our probation officers are state corrections employees. I have not seen any of them carrying OC, and none of them have vests.

[jdlong]

Our probation officers are state corrections employees. I have not seen any of them carrying OC, and none of them have vests.

Wow. Very scary stuff. Then again, they might not recieve full academy training as we do...or they never leave the department. Entering a convicted felons home to serve a warrant and go 10-15 with no vest, no weapon, and no OC?? There's not a dollar figure that would get me to volunteer. Hell, they probably don't have radio contact with dispatch either. I hope they at least do a head count at the end of each shift!! Where's Bob?? Oh, I think he went out this morning to conduct a search and arrest his felon that has a history of 242's on LEO's (Battery here in Calif.)!!!

Truly unbelieveable. I'll say a prayer and keep them in my officer safety thoughts. I wonder how many patrol officers, narc unit officers, fugitive apprehension officers, and critical incident officers would be willing to conduct high risk entry's UNARMED...NO VEST...NO OC...just a nice set of cuffs???

CRAZY. Be safe. Thanks again for the reply.

[five0211]

Well here in Harris County, TX (The biggest County in Texas) our P.O's don't carry. I use to be a P.O. before I became an officer and was never allowed to carry. The legislature has past the law allowing P.O's to carry, but it is up to the discreation of the director to allow officers to carry. I can only think of 2 counties that allow officers to carry (Bexar, and Bell Counties). Even more absurd is that Juvenile P.O. officers are not allowed to carry and are expected to make their own arrests by administartion. My girlfriend has a case load of strictly sex offenders and murders. She is allowed to carry handcuffs and nothing else.

[justice12]

Probation officers in NJ are not armed. There was a law passed recently allowing an armed unit to be formed, but the courts said no:

Law arming probation officers again judged illegal


Published by the Gannett State Bureau 2/19/04


By TOM BALDWIN
GANNETT STATE BUREAU
TRENTON -- A state appeals court Friday ruled probation officers, who argue their lives are imperiled by criminals, cannot carry firearms.

The decision overturned a state law signed in 2002 creating a unit of at least 200 probation officers authorized to carry guns. A three-judge appellate panel said the law violates the separation of powers and is unconstitutional.

The head of the 3,800 probation officers' and supervisors' union sounded angry.

"I thought at least one of those judges would say this law was not unconstitutional," said George Christie, president of the Probation Association of New Jersey, based in Brielle.

"I am not sure where we take the case now. . . . It's an outrage," Christie said. "There are 100,000 probationers out there and 30,000 of them are missing. These people on probation have become increasingly more dangerous."

Christie said federal probation officers carry firearms. "They deal with the same people we do. They go into the same places we do."

Cynthia M. Jacob, the private lawyer who filed the lawsuit for the judiciary, which oversees probation officers, did not respond to calls for comment.

"We are pleased with the decision," said judiciary spokeswoman Winnie Comfort.

Probation officers supervise just-released inmates. Often the officers have to seek out their clients if they do not report in, as ordered by the courts.

Hardened criminals, said Christie, dwell in dangerous neighborhoods, where unarmed officers won't enter, "So these guys get a free ride."

The state Department of Law and Public Safety argued alongside the probation officers against the judiciary. Probation officers wanted the case heard in U.S. District Court, but a federal judge sent it back to state court.

"They sued us in their own court," Christie said. "That is very strange. We asked for a neutral third party. A neutral third party was rejected. We tried to get it into the federal courts, and the federal judge sent it back to the state."

The union's lawyer, David Fox, said, "It's a terrible curiosity. It's almost a travesty that the courts would hear a case which they themselves had decided. . . . There is a perception of unfairness," Fox said.

[jdlong]

Well here in Harris County, TX (The biggest County in Texas) our P.O's don't carry. I use to be a P.O. before I became an officer and was never allowed to carry. The legislature has past the law allowing P.O's to carry, but it is up to the discreation of the director to allow officers to carry. I can only think of 2 counties that allow officers to carry (Bexar, and Bell Counties). Even more absurd is that Juvenile P.O. officers are not allowed to carry and are expected to make their own arrests by administartion. My girlfriend has a case load of strictly sex offenders and murders. She is allowed to carry handcuffs and nothing else.

Thanks for the response. Yeah, it's truly amazing that a debate even exists whether Probation Officers should armed. Are they insane?? Every contact I make is with a convicted felon, a parolee, sex offender, etc. There's not a home I enter (or should I say trailer) that doesn't belong to the worst of the worst. 100% of our "calls" are with the bad guy...nothing else. It blows me away. I'm armed from the moment I leave my house to the moment I get home...and off-duty. As I said in prior posts...I like to go home to my wife at night. I also don't like coming across felons on the street that I've sent to prison...they've had plenty of time to think of me. At the same time, I treat everyone with respect and I'm far from a gung-ho, cowboy officer. In fact, I'm in plain clothes, vest, and concealed carry.

Anyway scary stuff. I hope your girlfriend is AT LEAST allowed to partner with local LEO's on her arrests and searches?? Do they help her out?? Tell her to be safe!!!

[aznachocheze]

I served 5 years in the largest county (Maricopa which is the Phoenix valley area) in your neighbor state of Arizona with the Adult Probation Dept. We have seperate Dept's for Juvenile and Parole is a state run program. The last three years in the dept for me was spent in the Fugitive Unit. Over the course of my five years I made about 1200 arrests of felons (and some misd) all without a gun. They did not get armed untill I was in the academy for another agency. Our union fought long and hard to get the change in mind set with our top brass. Warrants was the best gig I have done so far and it was all rush chasing around fugitives with nothing but my wits to get the job done. We worked very close with our local police agencies but they could not knock on every door with you and I personally hate to have to beg another cop from another dept to do my job.

[jdlong]

I served 5 years in the largest county (Maricopa which is the Phoenix valley area) in your neighbor state of Arizona with the Adult Probation Dept. We have seperate Dept's for Juvenile and Parole is a state run program. The last three years in the dept for me was spent in the Fugitive Unit. Over the course of my five years I made about 1200 arrests of felons (and some misd) all without a gun. They did not get armed untill I was in the academy for another agency. Our union fought long and hard to get the change in mind set with our top brass. Warrants was the best gig I have done so far and it was all rush chasing around fugitives with nothing but my wits to get the job done. We worked very close with our local police agencies but they could not knock on every door with you and I personally hate to have to beg another cop from another dept to do my job.

Congrats on doing a great job and staying safe brother. I'm just amazed to hear that there is ANY QUESTION why a Probation Officer should be authorized to carry with the world we work in. As I said, 100% of our field work is with convicted felons...no other calls to deal with (citizen complaints, etc.) I would say that puts our "officer safety risk" about as high as it can get. Can't imagine executing a high risk warrant or probation search unarmed and without the assistance of our S.O. and City Officers. We work very well together. We open many doors for them as well without the need to establish PC and write entry paper. You've got to love full search and seizure 24-7, no PC needed!!

Thanks for the response. Glad to hear your prior Probation agency figured out their P.O.'s work with a pretty nasty crowd. I wonder how many patrol , narc, fugitive apprehension, or special ops officers would be willing to serve warrants on convicted felons or parolees at large UNARMED?????

[AtlCop]

Georgia Probation Officers work for the Georgia Dept. of Corrections. They are fully armed and have arrest powers.

[jdlong]

Georgia Probation Officers work for the Georgia Dept. of Corrections. They are fully armed and have arrest powers.

Thanks for the reply. Glad to hear P.O.'s in Georgia are provided with the appropriate tools of the trade. As I've said in my original and many follow-up posts, I'm simply amazed that some Departments ARE NOT arming their P.O.'s!! Hell, our only contact and field work is with convicted felons and parolees!! There's not a dollar figure in the world that would get me to make entry on a high-risk warrant service UNARMED in the home (a.k.a. trailer) of one of my felons!!! I guess those Chiefs that are deciding not to arm thier P.O.'s have been behind a desk way too long...or they've never been in the field. Can't count how many "surprises" we encounter on our regular probation visits/searches as well...there's ALWAYS additional probationers and or parolees you didn't expect. I'd say our officer safety risk is about as high as it can get. We're county Probation Officers here in California. Our Parole Agents work for the Department of Corrections.

Be safe.
Jdlong

[ufresdave]

10-15, felon, convicted

JD, below is one line from each of your responses. You will find a common theme (must contain the words: 10-15, felon, convicted (or combination of those 3). We get the point. You deal with felons everyday. You shouldnt be unarmed; i agree. Its just a little over the top. Its almost wannabeish.

EVERY PERSON I COME IN CONTACT WITH IS A CONVICTED FELON

As I said, our searches, warrants, arrests, and routine daily field work is with the worst....felons and parolees (nobody else)

As I said, every minute we spend in the field is with the worst of the worst...no other calls we deal with.

Entering a convicted felons home to serve a warrant and go 10-15 with no vest, no weapon, and no OC??

Are they insane?? Every contact I make is with a convicted felon, a parolee, sex offender, etc.

As I said, 100% of our field work is with convicted felons...no other calls to deal with (citizen complaints, etc.)

Hell, our only contact and field work is with convicted felons and parolees!!

Also, in FL, PO's are armed and are LEO. They do not carry in plain view. Good bunch of bros. Stay safe JD and all.